Confusion Among Lutherans

[JonNC]

=ndismyhome;11354081]I, too, have been on the losing end of a number of discussions of weekly Communion at various congregations I have been a part of. Here in ND, the three largest religious groups are ELCA Lutherans, Roman Catholics, and LCMS Lutherans. The former two dwarf the latter by many thousands of people. At any rate, anything that looks too “Catholic” is immediately resisted by many. For example, I started changing the altar paraments at one of the congregations I serve, which hasn’t been done for some number of years. One old woman took it upon herself to label me a Catholic sympathizer.

I remember as a kid people leaving the service prior to the liturgy of the sacrament if the communion was not the first one of the month.

As for Evangelical Catholic, I understand it to be a fluid but (mostly) clearly defined movement within Lutheranism calling for greater fidelity to our catholic and Confessional roots in a time of much rapid change in practice and doctrine.

Agreed.

Jon

 

[ndismyhome]

This article is one of my favorites, and it outlines the Lutheran situation, particularly in America, fairly well: touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=11-03-014-f

That was a fantastic article! Though I am not LCMS or WELS, this really resonated with the situation I and a few like minded colleagues find ourselves in!

 

[gcnuss]

You know, Pastor, I try not to laugh when I hear a Lutheran say this, but instead point them to the Lutheran confessions, and tell them at this is what Lutheranism teaches and believes and even promises to its members:
Jon

I certainly have been down the path of quoting the Lutheran confessions in an attempt to change some folks’ minds. However, changing minds that have turned to concrete is not always easy.

 

[ndismyhome]

I remember as a kid people leaving the service prior to the liturgy of the sacrament if the communion was not the first one of the month

In ELCA we have an almost thoughtless treatment of the Sacrament. I know of a few colleagues who append the Verba to any old Bible study or whatever and have a bit of wine and bread (always in earthen vessels and purchased fair trade) at the close. Others thoughtless partake every time it is even hinted at being offered. While my confessional commitments require that I fight for weekly Communion, I worry that what I am trying to accomplish will look to the congregation as even more impiety about the Lord’s Supper.

 

[Casilda]

Thread title is ‘Confusion Among Lutherans’. I dont think its so much a confusion as some kind of focused movement away from traditional Lutheranism. I am happy to admit I have a long standing friendship with a Lutheran-LCMS deaconness who still crosses herself before getting into her pew and whips out her rosary. That said, the changes to the hymnal from ‘catholic’ to ‘Christian’ church and leaving out the Magnificat sung during advent is just the tip of the iceberg in this movement. I know a choir director who quit after the new and younger pastor refused to allow an instrumental only version of Ave Maria to be played for Christmas. I was a member of this church for 5 years, the closest my husband would allow to a Catholic church, he grew to appreciate the liturgy and accepted the teaching of the True Body and Blood…it was a nice segue to Roman Catholicism.

 

[JonNC]

I certainly have been down the path of quoting the Lutheran confessions in an attempt to change some folks’ minds. However, changing minds that have turned to concrete is not always easy.

I know what you mean, Pastor. I have been an elder a number of years now, and we still have 1st, 3rd, and 5th Sunday communion. Don’t want to wear it out, dontcha know.

Jon

 

[hn160]

I have jumped into posts lately because there are too many hockey games on TV lately. The ELCA parish that I was a member, used “catholic” in the Creeds, when I joined the LC-MS parish that I go to, they use “Christian” in the Apostles and the Nicene Creeds and “catholic” in the Athanasian Creed. I still say catholic instead. Like some said Lutherans bristle at being lumped in with the Calvinist and some bristle at being too catholic. My LC-MS parish is of the conserative bent of Lutheranism and out two pastors are trying to bring the members away from being afraid of being too catholic. The theology of the Calvinist from Predestination to The Lord’s Supper is messed up.

 

[andrewstx]

My friend who is a cradle Lutheran, LCMS, during a conversation with her, I asked if she was Catholic/catholic and she said no she was a protestant.

Than I asked if her Pastor was a priest or a minister and her answer was that he was a minister.

My question is if some some Lutherans on CAF claim to be catholic, why do some Lutherans claim they are not, but protestant. This also goes for Anglicans. Either their church is Catholic or it is not.

No Catholic would say they were not Catholic but protestant if asked.

I also recall growing up in a typical Episcopal parish that they claimed to be protestant, and until the last 20 years or so, both Anglicans and Lutherans state they are Catholic, not protestant.

Also if one were to read the history of the changes in the Episcopal church, until 1979 they changed their liturgy to be much closer to the OF/ VII liturgy and this was years after the Catholic Church changed their liturgy in 1964. I now wonder it the Episcopal church will now change their liturgy to conform more to the newest translation of the Catholic Mass.

The only parishes that claimed to be Catholic in TEC were Anglo Catholic parishes, how can a church be protestant for centuries and then all of a sudden decide they are Catholic.

Just wondering.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

I am not well aqainted with Lutheran claims and ideas so I will not comment on them.
But I am a former Episcopalian so I will speak of them.

The Anglicans are very diverse. Although I attended Anglo Catholic churches before my conversion to Orthodoxy not all Episcopal churches believe in Catholic doctrine. Some of them believe in ‘getting saved’ and the Holy Eucharist is symbolic only and they celebrate only once a month. There are alsomiddle stamp" Anglicans.

All of those expressions are legitimately Anglican. To me all it takes to be Anglican/Episcopalian is to pay your pledge and have good taste.

As GKC always says "“Anglicans are a motley crew”.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

What is interesting is that diversity among Lutherans is also geographic. My experience is that where Lutherans have considerable presence in America [upper Midwest/ Great Lakes/ Mid Atlantic/Northeast] they are more likely to be ‘catholic’. Also in parts of northern Europe where Lutherans can barely be distinguished from Roman Catholics except where forced into union with Calvinists.

 

[BernadetteM]

I am not well aqainted with Lutheran claims and ideas so I will not comment on them.
But I am a former Episcopalian so I will speak of them.

The Anglicans are very diverse. Although I attended Anglo Catholic churches before my conversion to Orthodoxy not all Episcopal churches believe in Catholic doctrine. Some of them believe in ‘getting saved’ and the Holy Eucharist is symbolic only and they celebrate only once a month. There are alsomiddle stamp" Anglicans.

All of those expressions are legitimately Anglican. To me all it takes to be Anglican/Episcopalian is to pay your pledge and have good taste.

As GKC always says "“Anglicans are a motley crew”.

Agreed!

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[ndismyhome]

What is interesting is that diversity among Lutherans is also geographic. My experience is that where Lutherans have considerable presence in America [upper Midwest/ Great Lakes/ Mid Atlantic/Northeast] they are more likely to be ‘catholic’. Also in parts of northern Europe where Lutherans can barely be distinguished from Roman Catholics except where forced into union with Calvinists.

I think that you are right that geography (and with this historic immigration patterns) have much to do with it. The Germans, especially those fleeing the union churches, are more likely to cling to Luther’s translation (and he followed a common translation in his time) of “catholicam” with Christian (the German term escapes me presently).

I would also add to this that the Scandanavian and old German churches are more likely to be in denominations that were/ are part of the Ecumenical Movement, so “catholic” might be partly due to this. Whereas the German refugees from the LCMS and WELS would be more likely to resist a change.

 

[Peter_J]

My friend who is a cradle Lutheran, LCMS, during a conversation with her, I asked if she was Catholic/catholic and she said no she was a protestant.

Than I asked if her Pastor was a priest or a minister and her answer was that he was a minister.

My question is if some some Lutherans on CAF claim to be catholic, why do some Lutherans claim they are not, but protestant. This also goes for Anglicans. Either their church is Catholic or it is not.

No Catholic would say they were not Catholic but protestant if asked.

I also recall growing up in a typical Episcopal parish that they claimed to be protestant, and until the last 20 years or so, both Anglicans and Lutherans state they are Catholic, not protestant.

Also if one were to read the history of the changes in the Episcopal church, until 1979 they changed their liturgy to be much closer to the OF/ VII liturgy and this was years after the Catholic Church changed their liturgy in 1964. I now wonder it the Episcopal church will now change their liturgy to conform more to the newest translation of the Catholic Mass.

The only parishes that claimed to be Catholic in TEC were Anglo Catholic parishes, how can a church be protestant for centuries and then all of a sudden decide they are Catholic.

Just wondering.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

This was written by an Anglican, but I think he articulates a view shared by many Lutherans:
“Pro and Con testantism”

 

[Peter_J]

I have jumped into posts lately because there are too many hockey games on TV lately. The ELCA parish that I was a member, used “catholic” in the Creeds, when I joined the LC-MS parish that I go to, they use “Christian” in the Apostles and the Nicene Creeds and “catholic” in the Athanasian Creed. I still say catholic instead. Like some said Lutherans bristle at being lumped in with the Calvinist and some bristle at being too catholic. My LC-MS parish is of the conserative bent of Lutheranism and out two pastors are trying to bring the members away from being afraid of being too catholic. The theology of the Calvinist from Predestination to The Lord’s Supper is messed up.

It’s gratifying to see that you guys aren’t afraid to admit faults. Conversely, I think we Catholics should recognize that we aren’t helping things when, after hearing a Lutheran (or Anglican) expressing a desire to be more catholic, we cut them off with something like “Catholic means being in communion with Rome!”

 

[batman1973]

It’s gratifying to see that you guys aren’t afraid to admit faults. Conversely, I think we Catholics should recognize that we aren’t helping things when, after hearing a Lutheran (or Anglican) expressing a desire to be more catholic, we cut them off with something like “Catholic means being in communion with Rome!”