Confusion at Byzantine Liturgy - questions

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FabiusMaximus

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Hello everyone,

For the first time yesterday I attended a liturgy at a Byzantine-Ruthenian parish (I’m not sure if that’s the correct terminology but that’s what was written in the liturgy book). I had attended an Orthodox parish a few years ago so I expected to be familiar with most of the liturgy, but I noticed a few things:
  • There were kneelers in the pew, which shocked me because I was under the impression that there was no kneeling in the liturgy.
  • Also, I noticed that about half used them, and the other half stood in those portions of the liturgy where people knelt. I was so utterly confused I had no idea what to do.
  • Lots of Western-looking stain-glass window.
I’m assuming that this specific parish had been influenced by a fair amount of Romanization in the past, but I thought a lot of the Eastern rites had attempted to purge some of these practices from their liturgies and parishes?

Oh, it was very nice though. Even though it was a very small parish congregation, it was very reverent and apparently one doesn’t need a whole schola or group of trained professional chanters to have a decent chant going. Wish some parishes on in the Roman rite would understand that.
 
FabiusMaximus said:
Hello everyone,

For the first time yesterday I attended a liturgy at a Byzantine-Ruthenian parish (I’m not sure if that’s the correct terminology but that’s what was written in the liturgy book). I had attended an Orthodox parish a few years ago so I expected to be familiar with most of the liturgy, but I noticed a few things:
  • There were kneelers in the pew, which shocked me because I was under the impression that there was no kneeling in the liturgy.
  • Also, I noticed that about half used them, and the other half stood in those portions of the liturgy where people knelt. I was so utterly confused I had no idea what to do.
  • Lots of Western-looking stain-glass window.
I’m assuming that this specific parish had been influenced by a fair amount of Romanization in the past, but I thought a lot of the Eastern rites had attempted to purge some of these practices from their liturgies and parishes?

Oh, it was very nice though. Even though it was a very small parish congregation, it was very reverent and apparently one doesn’t need a whole schola or group of trained professional chanters to have a decent chant going. Wish some parishes on in the Roman rite would understand that.
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I can only speak as to my Ukrainian experience, but I would expect them to be similar.

Kneelers are probably leftovers from the days of Latinization and people may still cling to old habits. But the proper posture is no kneeling on Sundays. If this was a Sunday, standing was the correct thing to do.

As for the stained-glass windows, one can only point to the church’s designers. It’s not like stained glass is unknown in general Byzantine church design.
 
FabiusMaximus said:
Hello everyone,

For the first time yesterday I attended a liturgy at a Byzantine-Ruthenian parish (I’m not sure if that’s the correct terminology but that’s what was written in the liturgy book). I had attended an Orthodox parish a few years ago so I expected to be familiar with most of the liturgy, but I noticed a few things:
  • There were kneelers in the pew, which shocked me because I was under the impression that there was no kneeling in the liturgy.
Click to expand...
Shock seems like a strong word here. 🙂 My Ruthenian parish does not have kneelers, but the local Greek Orthodox parish does. We do kneel at some liturgies throughout the year. It is generally not done on Sundays, though.

- Also, I noticed that about half used them, and the other half stood in those portions of the liturgy where people knelt. I was so utterly confused I had no idea what to do.

Lots of Western-looking stain-glass window.

I’m assuming that this specific parish had been influenced by a fair amount of Romanization in the past, but I thought a lot of the Eastern rites had attempted to purge some of these practices from their liturgies and parishes?
Click to expand...

Standing is the proper liturgical posture, but in many cases kneeling hasn’t been completely eradicated. If the old-timers want to keep kneeling, nobody is going to chase them out of the church. The Greek Orthodox Church that I mentioned above also kneels during the Sunday Divine Liturgy (thus the kneelers). They even have a pipe organ, though I’ve never heard it used. It isn’t the norm in Orthodoxy, but isn’t unheard of, either.
 
The Byzantine church I occasionally visit has kneelers, but only like one or two per pew. A very odd arrangement, but it also had some Latin Catholics as regulars. It too is a very small parish. Also, while there are no statues, there is a large picture of Our Lady of Guadalupe on the back wall, along with the regular icons and icon screen.
 
The building could be a former Roman Catholic church. I know of a former Protestant church that is now Greek Orthodox that retained kneelers.
 
babochka said:
Shock seems like a strong word here. 🙂 My Ruthenian parish does not have kneelers, but the local Greek Orthodox parish does. We do kneel at some liturgies throughout the year. It is generally not done on Sundays, though.
Click to expand...
Well I certainly have no problem with kneeling, indeed I love kneeling at a Tridentine Mass or even at a Paul VI Mass. It was just very surprising to me.
Standing is the proper liturgical posture, but in many cases kneeling hasn’t been completely eradicated. If the old-timers want to keep kneeling, nobody is going to chase them out of the church. The Greek Orthodox Church that I mentioned above also kneels during the Sunday Divine Liturgy (thus the kneelers). They even have a pipe organ, though I’ve never heard it used. It isn’t the norm in Orthodoxy, but isn’t unheard of, either.
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I’d be quite surprised to hear an organ at a Divine Liturgy at an Orthodox parish XD.
 
FabiusMaximus said:
Well I certainly have no problem with kneeling, indeed I love kneeling at a Tridentine Mass or even at a Paul VI Mass. It was just very surprising to me.
Click to expand...
But kneeling has a different meaning in the East than the West.

In the East, standing is the position of respect, and kneeling of penitence.

This was also the case in the West until people kneeled before earthly kings–at which point, logically, the same was due the King of Kings.

As a result, kneeling became the position of both respect and penitence–in the West.

hawk
 
FabiusMaximus said:
I’d be quite surprised to hear an organ at a Divine Liturgy at an Orthodox parish XD.
Click to expand...
I’ve been to one where they played the first few notes on an organ (previous Catholic church). Likewise, amongst the Syriac Orthodox (especially the Indians) keyboards are not unknown. Not to mention Armenians.
 
I’ve heard organ and keyboard before. You’ll sometimes find them in Greek and Antiochian parishes. You would never hear one in a Russian parish. I hate them personally but I understand why some churches have them.

First and foremost they are a long standing tradition at the parishes that have them so there is often an enormous resistance to removing them. When an Orthodox congregation would buy an older building from either Catholics or Protestants quite a few of them came with an organ and kneelers. These immigrants wanted to assimilate into American culture so some of these congregations began using the organ just like the Americans.

Second, in additon to wanting to keep the tradition of having an organ they acutally serve a good purpose. Singing four part harmony *a cappella * can be very challenging. Having an organ or keyboard helps tremendously.

Finally, it costs money to remove an organ and buy new pews with no kneelers, money they either don’t have or could be used for more important things.
 
Byzantine concept starts from the Roman truth that God’s liturgy is correct.
 
Contact your local bishop, this may be an issue with parishional interests.
 
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