Confusion of Men & Women's Roles in the Church can lead to the desire for homosexual "marriage" and openly homosexual pastors?

[GodHeals]

Hi,

Confusion of Men & Women’s Roles in the Church can lead to the desire for homosexual “marriage” and openly homosexual pastors? I wrote the below in response to someone else on another thread, but wanted to start a thread to speficially get others thoughts on the subject of MEN and WOMEN roles in the Church in comparison to ecclesial communities experiencing such atrocities.

I am not sure I could call a woman a Pastor, and now even hesitate calling male ecclesial community (“Church”) leaders Pastor. It isn’t that I don’t respect them or that they didn’t work hard to earn their degree or that they aren’t God loving men and women who have a lot of knowledge, but i feel like it would be leading them away from the Truth (and not speaking the Truth in Love), hinting that they might have a right to call themselves Pastors. I just seems the role reversals with women “pastors” have a strong tie into feminism and homosexuality in the Protestant ecclesial communities. Any thoughts? I think I will post this comment elsewhere to see if it isn’t just me. Seem mainline protestant ecclesial communities that allow homosexual “Pastors” and “Marriage” have such confusion of male and female roles in the Church and that spills over into the marriage and family. Or maybe the misunderstanding of marriage and family spills over in the ecclesial communities… maybe both depending on a persons starting point. THANK GOD FOR THE MORAL LAWS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SO WE DON’T HAVE TO DEAL WITH SUCH THINGS. But the starting point should always be the Catholic Church. Liberal protestantism has certainly caused a lot of issues in our culture, it seems (and also the Catholic Church leaders who have failed to keep close to Magisterial teaching)… even with contraception in the 1930’s? So for going kind of off the subject. I would like to hear your thoughts.

I met a Presbyterian at a local library and he told me his childhood ecclesial community was at one time more conservative. But now as a Pastor of a similar ecclesial community, they have all kinds of liberal teachings, and he seemed to kind of just brush it off. He said they have women “Pastors”. I am not sure if he experienced that growing up or not. I didn’t ask him about openly homosexual “Pastors” or “homosexual marriage”. After learning about these immoral teachings in some? of the higher order non-denominational ecclesial communities; Lutheran ECLA, Methodist, Episcopalian, Presybterian, it was easy to pass them over to come back to the Catholic Church. I used to attend an evangelical ecclesial community. Well, in reality, it was either an evangelical ecclesial community, or Catholicism. It took some time, but “We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose.”(Romans 8:28)

 

[BrethrenBoy]

No. It does not. My church has ordained women since the mid 19th century. I’ve grown up with several female pastors, the most prominent being my current Youth Pastor. This has no bearing on my church’s views of homosexuality. A large portion of the church sees at a sin. Others do not, but not because of woman’s ordination.

 

[lerapt78]

Hi Godheals,

While I don’t think that women who fill roles within the Church are “tied in” in any *specific *way with feminism and homosexuality, I think I understand the correlation you are trying to make. I would say that the changes you see are not neessarily linked to political ideals, or even to women’s confusion over their roles, but rather to the psychology itself of the average woman. The correlation between women in authoritative roles and a subsequent “bending” or laxity of previously held customs might have more to do with the way women approach a conflict of interest. Let’s take for example the stereotype that men are “hard” and women are “soft”:

A woman’s softer approach to law and Church structure may have something to do with her being more naturally sympathetic to those individuals (or groups) she perceives to be the underdogs, or “victims” of society. When looking at the traditional societal attitude towards homosexuality, and the way discrimination has been carried out, a woman may find herself more likely to associate on a personal level with the requests of certain homosexual groups, perhaps because she has always heard about how women themselves have been discriminated against in the past. This sense of shared victimization could very well cause her to align herself with the causes of others who have been on the receiving end of it as well. This outlook can apply itself to subjects other than feminism and homosexuality, such as race, immigration, academic competition, sports/physical competition, and eugenics (to name a few), which is why I say the roles women occupy in the Church are not specifically tied to these two issues alone.

I think one of the key differences between men and women (so it is assumed) when it comes to approaching subjects which require concrete thinking, is that men will *tend *to look at the issue in more pragmatic terms (so long as pragmaticism will not be contrary to their personal well-being), and will have less of a problem saying “no” to a concept that is taken to be harmful in the long run; whereas women might approach the very same issue from a starting point of not necessarily looking to make the *best *decision, but wanting instead to be “fair” to everyone - even if that fairness will have negative outcomes overall. Therefore, a policy or law which seems to unfairly exclude another person, such as the debate over homosexual marriage, may *tend *to bring out the softer emotions in women, who feel that an impediment to marriage is unjust to the individual. Again, I stress the term “tend to”, because many women are capable of taking hard-line approaches toward certain issues.

Not necessarily agreeing with this viewpoint - just making an observation.

 

[klm120861]

I am not sure I could call a woman a Pastor, and now even hesitate calling male ecclesial community (“Church”) leaders Pastor. It isn’t that I don’t respect them or that they didn’t work hard to earn their degree or that they aren’t God loving men and women who have a lot of knowledge, but i feel like it would be leading them away from the Truth (and not speaking the Truth in Love), hinting that they might have a right to call themselves Pastors.

When coming into contact with Prot. pastors, male or female, it’s very important to remember that they have no idea what the Catholic Church teaches in regard to Pastors, or anything eles, and what they do know is probably wrong. It’s important to meet them where they are, and while you would see not calling them Pastor as “speaking the truth in love” they would view it as disrespectful, because they don’t know any different. It could have the unfortunate consequence of closing a door that the Holy Spirt has opened. They aren’t what they are because they have rejected the Church, (mostly), they are what they are because…they simply don’t know any different. They can’t even make an informed choice because they have no information. As you build the relationship with them, then you can begin to very gently and with the greatest respect answer they questions they ask. And eventually they will ask.

I just seems the role reversals with women “pastors” have a strong tie into feminism and homosexuality in the Protestant ecclesial communities. Any thoughts?

Speaking for myself, and I think, most women pastors, that’s not true. Sure, some are, just like there are some sisters out there who think women should be able to be priests. In the Prot. world, the pastor does not ever stand “in the person of Chirst the Head”. That being true, why couldn’t a woman be a pastor? When St. Paul writes, “And he gave some as apostles, others as prothets, others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers, to equip the holy ones for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ…” (Ephesians 4: 11-12) he doesn’t specify men only. Someone called to be a pastor is someone who has a burning desire to see to the long-term spiritual growth of others. Yes, I would imagine all priests have this calling, this gift of the Holy Spirit. One could say that all priests are called to be pastors, but not all who are called to be pastors are (or can be) priests. Clearly, Bl. Mother Theresa had a calling to be a pastor. To start an entire new Order, one would have to have, among other gifts. So do spiritual directors. And catechists. And theology teachers. And a host of others.

In the Prot. world, if a woman has the burning desire to see to the long-term spiritual growth of others in a full-time ministry role, her options will all involve the title “Pastor”. Children’s Pastor. Youth Pastor. Women’s Pastor. Associate Pastor. Sometimes even Senior Pastor. In other words, her options are very limited. In the Catholic world, a woman can do almost all of these, but she can also enter religious life.
In the Prot. world, ordination of women, homosexuality and feminism are all separate issues. For me, I wanted to be an Assoc. Pastor. I never wanted to pastor my own church, partly because I didn’t think women, in general, could be as effective as men in that role, but also because I frankly didn’t want that level of responsibility. And pastor is responsible before God for the care of his (or in the Prot. world, her) flock. I wanted someone in authority over me. I didn’t want to be the final say, the final one responsible. I am not now, nor have I ever been a feminist. Even before becoming a Catholic, I was a married homeschooling mom. I am (and was) about as traditional as you can get.

I think one reason why some see nothing wrong with openly practicing homosexual pastors goes to the thinking that as long as you are a good person, you will get to heaven. If you are “once saved, always saved” then you can do whatever you want and be okay. If there is no magesterium to say, “this is right and true, and this is not”, then whatever sounds reasonable is okay, and “who am I to say that God didn’t call them”. There is no discernment process. There is no one to say, “no, you can’t do that.” When it comes to Truth, in the Protestant world, everyone is out there on a limb all by themselves, making it up as they go. And the saddest thing is that they honestly don’t know any better. They don’t know any different. They have never even been exposed to the possiblility that “different” even exists. May the Holy Spirit birth in them a desire to search for the Truth. And may we, as Catholics, be prepared to gently and lovingly guide them when they ask.
Kris

 

[GodHeals]

Not necessarily agreeing with this viewpoint - just making an observation.

Hello,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. It seems there may be a difference in the way men and women think, or so I have heard, but I also think I’ve heard the way men and women think complement one another in marriage.

I think it always had to go back to what a person believes to be true, to Truth. If a person believes feminism, women pastors, “homosexual marriage”, openly homosexual pastors is in alignment with the Truth, they will advocate them. If they are ignorant, they will be against them. I am not sure it is that simple or not.

It seems to me they are linked together somehow; confusion of roles of men and women in Church as compared to roles of men and women in marriage.

Awhile ago, I heard someone in theology of the body? (or somewhere) in similar? words say that allowing women Priests would be Lesbianism, because a women cannot act in Persona Christ, the Person of Christ, and minster the sacraments out of love for the bride, the Church.

I still need to process this more. It just stuck me that the Presbyterian minister that I ran into seemed to see what I was talking about on some level, and didn’t really argue against it. I am not sure he would 100% agree with me, but might not have agreed with her fellow women pastors (not sure what they all believed). We didn’t go into details.

Thank you for the discussion.
Brian

 

[GodHeals]

klm120861:
Hi Kris,

Thank you again for your responses. I really do appreciate this discussion and getting your insights. Please read my last post before this one too, if you get a chance. I think you might have heard something similar about Persona Christi based on your comment?

Perhaps Priest shouldn’t expect Protestants to call them father either, which hopefully Priests don’t take offense either. I am not sure, but there are recent times that i might have called a Protestant Pastor, Pastor, but I am rethinking about these things and what they mean.

There are times in passing we will meet someone on the street or restaurant that that may be the only chance they will ever talk to a Catholic on such matters. If they aren’t corrected then or hear of the differences, they may never take interesting in further knowing the Truth.

In the Prot. world, the pastor does not ever stand “in the person of Chirst the Head”. That being true, why couldn’t a woman be a pastor?

The role of the Priestly duties in Persona Christi has somewhat helped me to understand the role of women in Church, but I think the term Pastor in the USA Catholic Church means head of a Parish.

I am not sure the context, need to look into it to better understand what the Church teaches:

When St. Paul writes, “And he gave some as apostles, others as prothets, others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers, to equip the holy ones for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ…” (Ephesians 4: 11-12) he doesn’t specify men only.

I guess it it the proper sense of the term “Pastor” is never given to a women in the Catholic Church, but only, from my limited knowledge, pastoral associate, which we have one at the local Parish.

This term denotes a priest who has the cure of souls (cura animarum), that is, who is bound in virtue of his office to promote the spiritual welfare of the faithful by preaching, administering the sacraments, and exercising certain powers of external government, e.g., the right of supervision, giving precepts, imposing light corrections — powers rather paternal in their nature, and differing from those of a bishop, which are legislative, judicial, and coactive. - newadvent.org/cathen/11537b.htm

In the Prot. world, if a woman has the burning desire to see to the long-term spiritual growth of others in a full-time ministry role, her options will all involve the title “Pastor”.

At the evangelical ecclesial community “church” that I attended in the past, they had one women with the name “pastor”, and she might have been helping children or a little bit more in the background, never preaching on Saturday or Sunday… that i have ever seen or heard of. I am sure there are many variation depending on the Protestant ecclesial community.

I didn’t want to be the final say, the final one responsible.

Seems like, for me at least, this was a big reason you entered the Catholic Church? Besides not wanting to have that sort of role as a Protestant “Pastor”. Is your husband Catholic, family members, anyone close to you that helped you see the Truth of the Catholic Church?

I am sure there are many sotereological beliefs that people who practice same sex behavior belief… they also need to justify their same sex behaviors in scripture somehow by purposefully negating the true context.

I think one reason why some see nothing wrong with openly practicing homosexual pastors goes to the thinking that as long as you are a good person, you will get to heaven. If you are “once saved, always saved” then you can do whatever you want and be okay.

Your comment below is true for most Protestants it seems. Then there are some in rebellion against the Church, and really against Christ… that is when CCC 845 comes into play, “Outside the Church there is no salvation”. Knowing that it is the one true Church by being made aware to a significant degree, and denying it to be true. That is why i had to revert to the Church… i still am trying to learn about the Orthodox Church, but feel i have enough knowledge that i needed to COME HOME TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. Otherwise, possible risky my salvation. I think it was time.

And the saddest thing is that they honestly don’t know any better.

Pax Christi, Soror!

Brian

 

[klm120861]

Part of the problem with dealing with Protestants is that they cover every imaginable spectrum. Some are “once saved always saved” the brand I came from -AofG - is the opposite. Everything sends you to hell. When talking to Prots. it’s important to really listen to them so you understand where they are coming from. That way you can properly respond to them. For someone who sees nothing wrong with female sr. pastors, starting with that issue probably isn’t the best place to start. They have absolutely no concept of “in the person of Christ the Head”, nor are they ready for it. Think pre-school, in terms of Catholic teaching. Not even Kindergarten yet.

For me, my parents converted a few years before my husband and I did. They answered some questions, but…it was more curiousity, I guess. I was being used where I was, and my favorite phrase was “That’s fine for you, but I’ll never be Catholic.” (And God laughed.)
I became Catholic because when I was ready to look for a job as a pastor or some sort, I would sit with the phone book open and pray about where to go and God told me repeatedly to “Go be Catholic.” Multiple times. Literally. Finally I told my husband what was going on and that I had to be obedient, but what he chose to do was up to him. Within a few weeks of my starting RCIA, he said he would come into the Church as well. I did not expect to find any more “truth” in the Catholic Church than I had found anywhere else, and I had pretty much been to every “brand” of Christian church there was. Needless to say, I did find Truth, but I was surprised it was there. Or here. Or whatever. One of the hardest things for me was realizing I would never be a pastor. I had no idea what I would do with the pastoral gift I had received from the Holy Spirit. What I didn’t know then was that women do have that gift in the Catholic Church, how they are called to use it is different, if that makes any sense.
Kris

 

[GodHeals]

repeatedly to “Go be Catholic.” Multiple times.

You heard that over a period of time or one day and what do you mean literal, God spoke inside you head or something?

One of the hardest things for me was realizing I would never be a pastor. I had no idea what I would do with the pastoral gift I had received from the Holy Spirit. What I didn’t know then was that women do have that gift in the Catholic Church, how they are called to use it is different, if that makes any sense.

When St. Paul writes, “And he gave some as apostles, others as prothets, others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers, to equip the holy ones for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ…” (Ephesians 4: 11-12) he doesn’t specify men only.

Just because it doesn’t say men or women, it seems to me that we need to take that verse in context of the others in what the qualifications are for Pastors, of one wife. Wouldn’t that simply eliminate that option as per scripture? I know there has to be a sort of workaround for Protestants.

How do you know that women have that gift for sure? I think i have heard another woman say that too, but cannot remember. It might have been the result of one of those spiritual gift classes. I am not sure what the Church would say about women having or not having that gift as per the test or the scriptures. Have you looked into it?

I am not sure exactly what you mean, but it seems you have some sort of desire to “Pastor”. Did you complete your schooling? What is your understanding of the defintion of a “Pastor”?

 

[klm120861]

You heard that over a period of time or one day and what do you mean literal, God spoke inside you head or something?

Just because it doesn’t say men or women, it seems to me that we need to take that verse in context of the others in what the qualifications are for Pastors, of one wife. Wouldn’t that simply eliminate that option as per scripture? I know there has to be a sort of workaround for Protestants.

How do you know that women have that gift for sure? I think i have heard another woman say that too, but cannot remember. It might have been the result of one of those spiritual gift classes. I am not sure what the Church would say about women having or not having that gift as per the test or the scriptures. Have you looked into it?

There is a difference between the spiritual gift of pastoral gifts and being a pastor. For a Catholic, only men can do that. The spiritual pastoral gift would be the gift on the Holy Spirit whereby a person (man or woman) has great concern for the long-term spiritual growth of people. Contrast that with the gift of evangelism. Someone with that gift is more concerned with introducing people to Christ then seeing to their long-term growth. Both are necessary, and both gifts can be given to either sex. That’s not to say that women who have the gift are called to be pastors, in the ministerial priesthood sense. We are all called to the common priesthood by virtue of our baptism, therefore there are those who are given the pastoral gift without necessarily being called (or even able to be called) to the ministeral priesthood. An RCIA director probably has such a gift, whether man or woman. Most catechists would, along with the gifts of teaching and perhaps wisdom and knowledge.

For me, there is a difference between the pastoral gift and the office of pastor. The difference is how the gift is to be used, and that will partly depend on your gender. To be an effective Mother of the Church, the Blessed Mother no doubt possessed the pastoral gift. She exercised it in a manner suitable to her gender and her calling. That’s my opinion, anyway. Do I believe I possess the pastoral gift of the Holy Spirit? Yes. I know I do. Do I think that automatically means I “should” be allowed to be a priest? Absolutely not. The Holy Spirit gave me the gift. He’ll show me how he wants it used in a manner appropriate to my calling and gender.

I am not sure exactly what you mean, but it seems you have some sort of desire to “Pastor”. Did you complete your schooling? What is your understanding of the defintion of a “Pastor”?

I did have a desire to be a pastor. And I did complete my schooling, but due to the fact that we couldn’t just move anywhere so my job options were limited and there were no openings, I never found a job. Now I see that as God’s doing, because if I had found a job, I doubt I ever would have found the Church. The gift and the calling weren’t wrong. What was wrong was assuming that it meant a “pulpit ministry” if you will. In a Prot. church, that’s okay because you don’t stand “in the person of Christ the Head”. But he was a guy, therefore for that reason alone, I can’t do that. The challenge, if you will, has been to discover how God wants me to use that gift within the context of the Catholic Church. I use it every time I teach. I use it when I post, because, for me, this isn’t something I do just because it’s fun (it is) I do it because I deeply care about the people I respond to. I pray for those who are struggling. Hopefully, occasionally, I post something that helps people grow in their faith, if only a tiny bit. For me, this is a ministry. I’m not sure if this helps, but it’s what is true for me.
Kris

 

[RobbyS]

No. It does not. My church has ordained women since the mid 19th century. I’ve grown up with several female pastors, the most prominent being my current Youth Pastor. This has no bearing on my church’s views of homosexuality. A large portion of the church sees at a sin. Others do not, but not because of woman’s ordination.

I grew up in a very Protestant environment, attended Protestant churches and did not start going to mass until I was 14, although I had been baptized a Catholic, after my folks were re-marrie din the Church. After Vatican II, I realized that some liberals Catholics knew almost nothing about Protestantism, did not, for instance realize that in the Protestant bodies, there is no firm line between the laity and the clergy, that the clergy was just members exercising a special religious ministry. They can be ordained in the clerical manner, or they can be, or more of less, self-ordained. Hence, basically, women ministers are no big deal. Whether ministers are men or women is a matter of custom, or convention. Quakers did not even have a clergy, and men or women could speak up as they were moved to by the spirit. The Catholic priesthood is a whole different thing. One has to reject that concept entirely to speak of women priests. Liberal Catholics soft-peddle that rejection. The less learned just promote notion that the exclusion of women is just a matter of convention and is not “fair “ to women.

 

[GodHeals]

I grew up in a very Protestant environment, attended Protestant churches and did not start going to mass until I was 14, although I had been baptized a Catholic, after my folks were re-marrie din the Church. After Vatican II, I realized that some liberals Catholics knew almost nothing about Protestantism, did not, for instance realize that in the Protestant bodies, there is no firm line between the laity and the clergy, that the clergy was just members exercising a special religious ministry. They can be ordained in the clerical manner, or they can be, or more of less, self-ordained. Hence, basically, women ministers are no big deal. Whether ministers are men or women is a matter of custom, or convention. Quakers did not even have a clergy, and men or women could speak up as they were moved to by the spirit. The Catholic priesthood is a whole different thing. One has to reject that concept entirely to speak of women priests. Liberal Catholics soft-peddle that rejection. The less learned just promote notion that the exclusion of women is just a matter of convention and is not “fair “ to women.

Thank you for sharing. That makes sense that it seems there is no clear line between Pastor and Laity, but there is a clear line between Priest and Laity, as seen through the Apostolic Succession and the laying on of hands in order to perform the Priestly sacramental duties. Did I say that right?

 

[GodHeals]

Hi Kris,

It wasn’t that I disagreed with anything, it just wasn’t for me, if that makes any sense. This took place over a period of several weeks, every time I would pray, the internal “voice” would tell me to “go be Catholic.” It wasn’t really a “voice in my head”, but it seemed to come from somewhere…almost outside of me, but not audible, if that makes sense. Like someone speaking in my ear, or rising up from my soul…I can’t explain it. I don’t know if there are words to explain it. Over the past 9 years I have tried, and I still can’t. If you have ever experienced it, you know what it’s like, but if you haven’t, it can’t be explained.

I am sure you had to have some disagreements with the Catholic Church? You didn’t disagree on the process of salvation, the Eucharist, praying to the Saints and Mary, and Mary being immaculate?

I actually think i know what you are talking about… the voices. I have heard God and Mary and Jesus speak to me (think Mary or Jesus, but think Mary said clearly before 11:30pm Mass on New Year’s Eve “You Matter” - brought tears to my eyes) clearly and in dreams.

It’s weird, but in the AofG people use the phrase “God told me…” all the time. It’s an ordinary thing to hear, so for me it’s not that unusual that it happens. It’s only since I’ve become Catholic that I have found maybe what I thought was so “ordinary” and “normal” maybe isn’t.

But are the Assemblies of God people hearing God, themselves, or the evil one? That is if it is something contrary to Catholic teaching. I often wonder this myself. How God works in non-Catholic Christians who fear (awe) and love God. Why wouldn’t God tell them to embrace the fullness of the Catholic Church, or are we just resisting Truth?

The spiritual pastoral gift would be the gift on the Holy Spirit whereby a person (man or woman) has great concern for the long-term spiritual growth of people. …
That’s not to say that women who have the gift are called to be pastors, in the ministerial priesthood sense. We are all called to the common priesthood by virtue of our baptism, therefore there are those who are given the pastoral gift without necessarily being called (or even able to be called) to the ministeral priesthood.

Do you derive this from that same bible verse? I don’t know much about the Priesthood of believers… think that is more a protestant teaching. I saw this thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=572260

We all are able to receive the 7 gifts of the Holy Spirit (not sure if you knew that or not):
“We receive the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit when we are infused with sanctifying grace, the life of God within us—as, for example, when we receive a sacrament worthily. These seven gifts help us to live a Christian life.” - catholicism.about.com/od/beliefsteachings/f/FAQ_Gifts_HS.htm

I pray for those who are struggling. Hopefully, occasionally, I post something that helps people grow in their faith, if only a tiny bit. For me, this is a ministry. I’m not sure if this helps, but it’s what is true for me.

Thank you for sharing everything and for reaching out to those who are struggling. There are so many people struggling in this world, and many come to these forums, or so it seems based on some of of the posts that I have read.

Why do you say “it’s what is true for me.” I think this can be seen as a moral relativist comment such as, “what is true for me, is true for me, what is true for you, is true for you” as if there isn’t objective Truth.

Kris!

 

[klm120861]

Fortunately I lived right across the street from a library that had a wonderful Catholic section. Even before RCIA, and during the early months of it, I read a lot of the Early Fathers. To me, it didn’t matter what the Church taught, it mattered that God had called me there. Reading the Early Fathers especially showed me that what I found in the Catechism and what they taught then was exactly the same, which means either they got it really wrong right away, or it was Truth. As one who teaches, all I ever really wanted was to be certain what I was teaching was Truth - not just my best guess. The only thing I struggled with briefly was the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. I saw equal evidence, at that point, for both positions.

Why wouldn’t God tell them to embrace the fullness of the Catholic Church, or are we just resisting Truth?

Just like any other Church, some of both, depending on the person. That’s why we are to run things past our confessor and/or spiritual director and not to actively seek such things, in fact we should reject/renounce such things. Where the AofG misses it, and most charismatics in general miss is, is that such locutions, visions, etc. are seen as the…end, I guess. In other words, once such things start happening, they don’t know that’s only one step in the journey to Divine Union. There’s more beyond that where God communicates directly with the soul. St. John writes beautifully about in in Ascent to Mt. Carmel. As far as God telling them to embrace the Church, there are a couple of points to that.

1. God meets people where they are and then draws them. Some will always be called to be where they are because God needs them there to reach people with the Gospel that a Catholic can’t because of the predjudices and misinformation the lost sheep may have. Yet those people still need a Savior.
2. They can’t resist a Truth they don’t know. The average person, Catholic or Prostestant, sitting in a pew on Sundays has very little idea what the doctrine and theology of their tradition is beyond what is declared in the pulpit on Sunday. They don’t study it. They trust that their pastor is telling them Truth because he, or she, has been called by God to shepherd them. But even in the pastor’s case, no matter how well educated they may be, they can’t teach what they don’t know. As Catholics speaking to our Protestant brothers and sisters, our job is not to convince them of the truth of the Catholic Church. Our job is to faithfully and lovingly answer whatever question they may have when they have it. Our job is strictly to impart information. It’s the Holy Spirit’s job to illuminate that information in their hearts in his way and in his time. Too often, on both the Catholic side and the Protestant side, Christians try to do His job and we fail miserably.

Why do you say “it’s what is true for me.” I think this can be seen as a moral relativist comment such as, “what is true for me, is true for me, what is true for you, is true for you” as if there isn’t objective Truth.

The reason I say, “it’s what is true for me” is becasue it is what I have experienced personally in my own life. It’s not meant to be realativistic. I will be the first to admit I know very little of the Catholic faith and teachings, at least compared to what is out there to be learned. I write from my personal perspective, and sometimes I don’t write how I reached my conclusions, becasue they are deeply personal. But, because I think it might help you understand better maybe, with regard to the pastoral gift, I will. Not long ago our parish ran a Catholic Spiritual Gifts Inventory in our bulletin. If you want to check it out in total, go to www.sttimothymesa.organd click the link. The purpose was to help laypeople discern their gifts so they would know where best to apply their talents within the Church without having to go through the “trial and error” method. If you have ever volunteered for something only to discover you hated doing it, you know what I mean. There are 22 gifts ranging from administration and craftsmanship to wisdom and writing. One of them is pastoral. The defination reads as follows: God-given ability to protect, feed and care for the long-term spiritual needs of individuals or groups enabling many to grow toward spiritual maturity. You deeply care about helping others’ long-term spiritual growth.
Kris

 

[RobbyS]

1. God meets people where they are and then draws them. Some will always be called to be where they are because God needs them there to reach people with the Gospel that a Catholic can’t because of the predjudices and misinformation the lost sheep may have. Yet those people still need a Savior.
2. They can’t resist a Truth they don’t know. The average person, Catholic or Prostestant, sitting in a pew on Sundays has very little idea what the doctrine and theology of their tradition is beyond what is declared in the pulpit on Sunday. They don’t study it. They trust that their pastor is telling them Truth because he, or she, has been called by God to shepherd them. But even in the pastor’s case, no matter how well educated they may be, they can’t teach what they don’t know. As Catholics speaking to our Protestant brothers and sisters, our job is not to convince them of the truth of the Catholic Church. Our job is to faithfully and lovingly answer whatever question they may have when they have it. Our job is strictly to impart information. It’s the Holy Spirit’s job to illuminate that information in their hearts in his way and in his time. Too often, on both the Catholic side and the Protestant side, Christians try to do His job and we fail miserably.

www.sttimothymesa.org

and click the link. The purpose was to help laypeople discern their gifts so they would know where best to apply their talents within the Church without having to go through the “trial and error” method. If you have ever volunteered for something only to discover you hated doing it, you know what I mean. There are 22 gifts ranging from administration and craftsmanship to wisdom and writing. One of them is pastoral. The defination reads as follows: God-given ability to protect, feed and care for the long-term spiritual needs of individuals or groups enabling many to grow toward spiritual maturity. You deeply care about helping others’ long-term spiritual growth.
Kris

Indeed, all of us are “prejudiced,” in the Burkean sense of the term. We are all creatures of our time and place, and our inmmortal part depends on our mortal part for all we know. Which is why Jesus said, preach the Gospel to every creature. Of course, most of us should just follow Francis’ advise, and “use words when necessary,” showing more often by our deeds that we are believers. Above all we must “listen” for God’s, as the Prophet did, careful to discern that the whisper is not that of the evil one. who hates us. Our Lord had this advantage over us. He could “see” the devil tempting him while he was invisible to the devil.

 

[GodHeals]

Hello Kris! I hope and pray that all is well with you and your family. It has been snowing out here in Chicago :snowing: Thanks for sharing the link on your local Church. It seems you are all having the EWTN cook at your Church! Maybe you will be able to enjoy some of his cooking?

it didn’t matter what the Church taught, it mattered that God had called me there. … Just like any other Church, some of both, depending on the person.

That is neat that God didn’t allow you to struggle so much with theological questions, as far as making a decision to enter the Church. I am sure you have questions, we all do. The more I learn, the more I learn I don’t know. BTW, not sure if you knew this, probably mentioned earlier, the proper term for a protestant “church” is an ecclesial community. I started using the term more. I haven’t mentioned it to many or any? of my Protestant friends, but try not to say do you go to this or that “church”… hard to avoid the word “church”, but don’t want to give the wrong impression there is more than one Church.

1. God meets people where they are and then draws them. Some will always be called to be where they are because God needs them there to reach people with the Gospel that a Catholic can’t because of the predjudices and misinformation the lost sheep may have. Yet those people still need a Savior.

1. They can’t resist a Truth they don’t know. The average person, Catholic or Prostestant, sitting in a pew on Sundays has very little idea what the doctrine and theology of their tradition is beyond what is declared in the pulpit on Sunday. They don’t study it. They trust that their pastor is telling them Truth because he, or she, has been called by God to shepherd them. But even in the pastor’s case, no matter how well educated they may be, they can’t teach what they don’t know.

I believe God gives all of us 100% grace to come to the fullness of the faith, but that also, it is 100% our decision. I heard 100% grace and 100% man, when we do anything good? I heard something like that… it is grace and love that we even exist.

Ephesians 4:11-12: “And he gave some as apostles, others as prophets, others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers, to equip the holy onew for th work of ministry,” (NAB) If, based on this passage a woman can be given the gift of teaching, why can’t she also be given the pastoral gift? How she is called to exercise it will be different.

I saw this link: dummies.com/how-to/content/the-role-of-women-in-the-catholic-church.html

I am not sure of the usage of the word Pastor in context. I would imagine this is not a generalized term, but that of the Magisterial Priesthood. I actually started a threat for that here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=10414265#post10414265

The reason I say, “it’s what is true for me” is becasue it is what I have experienced personally in my own life. It’s not meant to be realativistic. I will be the first to admit I know very little of the Catholic faith and teachings, at least compared to what is out there to be learned. I write from my personal perspective, and sometimes I don’t write how I reached my conclusions, becasue they are deeply personal. But, because I think it might help you understand better maybe, with regard to the pastoral gift, I will.

Thank you for sharing your insights, Kris. I think you mentioned you had the possible pastoral gift before becoming Catholic, but probably this test made it clearer? One of my thoughts about the spiritual gift tests is that it seems to only test on what you have learned from past or present experience, not what God might call us in the future (whether we enjoy something or not). I am not sure how much weight to put on those tests. We might not always enjoy something we do in life, but still be called to do it. I still do find that tests interesting, but don’t know enough about them myself, except for having taken a couple of them. I didn’t complete the Parish class on it, just had the test.

The defination reads as follows: God-given ability to protect, feed and care for the long-term spiritual needs of individuals or groups enabling many to grow toward spiritual maturity. You deeply care about helping others’ long-term spiritual growth.
Kris

This seems to be slightly different than a short term evangelism type of a gifting. I think we all should have most of the gifts at some level. Maybe, one of them just stands out more than the others?

God Bless you, Kris!
Brian