Conscience

  • Thread starter Thread starter mvh18
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

mvh18

Guest
So what do you make of that tiny little voice at the back of our heads telling us right from wrong? For those biologists out there, if conscience came purely about through evolutionary transition, why is it that we can disobey our conscience so freely? If it were a survival mechanism, then shouldn’t we listen to it every time? I ask this in the nicest way possible, and am geniunely interested to know!
 
So what do you make of that tiny little voice at the back of our heads telling us right from wrong? For those biologists out there, if conscience came purely about through evolutionary transition, why is it that we can disobey our conscience so freely? If it were a survival mechanism, then shouldn’t we listen to it every time? I ask this in the nicest way possible, and am geniunely interested to know!
That little voice has less to do with evolution and biological urges and more to do with social supression of those urges. As adults we recognize that some of those supressions that have become part of our unconscious are serving us well in getting along in society, but some of them, perhaps, are not actually doing us any good. Those suppressions that we deem to be a hinderance to wellbeing get overridden by the conscious self, but we still feel the negative effects of overriding the unconscious suppression in “guilty feelings” until the conscious self is able to expose the unconscious supression for what it is.

Best,
Leela
 
That little voice has less to do with evolution and biological urges and more to do with social supression of those urges. As adults we recognize that some of those supressions that have become part of our unconscious are serving us well in getting along in society, but some of them, perhaps, are not actually doing us any good. Those suppressions that we deem to be a hinderance to wellbeing get overridden by the conscious self, but we still feel the negative effects of overriding the unconscious suppression in “guilty feelings” until the conscious self is able to expose the unconscious supression for what it is.

Best,
Leela
Or, that tiny voice has nothing to do with social suppression and everything to do with a “natural law” within us which we’re free to override and in fact is overridden when, for example, one decides that incest or pedophilia might be a valid activity and any guilt associated with such activities should be squelched.
 
fhansen

The absence of conscience is so extreme a condition that it will tend to result in monstrous behavior. When we see up close the deeds of mass murderers, cannibals, serial killers, etc., we generally ask ourselves not only whether these acts are criminal, but also whether they are insane. The suppression of conscience does produce a certain freedom, but usually it is of the sort of freedom that results in terrorizing everybody else and depriving everybody else not only of their freedoms, but of life itself.

It is no accident that the Marquis de Sade wrote a story in which he succeeded in tempting a priest to join him in his monstrosities by arguing that there is no God, and therefore no need to worry about reward or punishment.
 
Or, that tiny voice has nothing to do with social suppression and everything to do with a “natural law” within us which we’re free to override and in fact is overridden when, for example, one decides that incest or pedophilia might be a valid activity and any guilt associated with such activities should be squelched.
But we know that the “tiny voice” can be misguided and tell us to do what we intellectually know is wrong like discriminating against people on the basis of race or sexual orientation. And we know that different people living in different cultures have “tiny voices” telling them different things than ours tells us. Such examples lead me to believe that this “tiny voice” is a cultural construct that has it’s benefits but needs to be overcome in certain situations where our upbringing taught us the wrong things.
 
That little “voice” inside doesn’t exist in everyone. It’s hard to believe I know but some humans, have no self-regulartory mechanism at all. When life get’s to be too much, they convert to religion.

Christians have a recognition of this need for a regulatory voice and follow a religion that embraces the concept of a regulartory voice and a logical and consistant understanding of the voice…which they call God.

Athiests, are so used to that self-regulatory voice that they are often astounded at those that seem to need it from an external beleif/source. Athiests are confoundd by those that think humanity cannot regulate it’s behaviour. Do the right thing, just cause…you know…it’s the right thing…DUH(say’s the athiest). By listening to the voice you no longer need belief.

The Mystic…well…they are just nuts 😛 But they tend to claim that the voice is real, but not apart from the individual but a part of them and that life is a progression toward that little voice which is one and the same and them…and God. There is no difference 🙂

Yeah, they confuse me too 🙂

Cheers
Dame
 
Leela

But we know that the “tiny voice” can be misguided and tell us to do what we intellectually know is wrong like discriminating against people on the basis of race or sexual orientation.

This is truly absurd. Conscience does not tell us to discriminate against people on the basis of race or sexual orientation. That is the devil telling us to do that. Conscience struggles daily against temptation, but does not always succeed. Try to imagine how horrible a place the world would be if conscience did not even struggle!
 
Dameedna

Athiests, are so used to that self-regulatory voice that they are often astounded at those that seem to need it from an external beleif/source. Athiests are confoundd by those that think humanity cannot regulate it’s behaviour. Do the right thing, just cause…you know…it’s the right thing…DUH(say’s the athiest). By listening to the voice you no longer need belief.

Why do you no longer need belief? If there is a God who has endowed us with the natural law (conscience), wouldn’t you still need to believe in that God?

You seem to work from a strictly utilitarian perspective. Only believe in God if it is useful to believe. Well **it is **useful to believe … because by believing in God we believe in grace and the power that grace gives us to follow our conscience and do the right thing. Knowing what is right and wrong is only half the battle. We *have to be willing *to do good and avoid evil. That strength comes from God when we pray for it.
 
For me, ‘conscience’ has to do with ‘morality’. The commonness of our human condition brings in the ‘Golden Rule’. The conscience puts us in the others shoes, receiving what we are dishing out… and lets us know if it is morally right, or wrong. Meaning, would you like done to you what you are doing to another?

This is much deeper then cultural, going to morals, and thereby to religion (the practice of it)… and that belief in God since how did it get here in the human in the first place.

Although the conscience denotes the negative aspects of not doing the right thing, while other aspects are related to doing the right thing… I believe they both originate from the conscience, which has a direct line to our soul… or even perhaps, within the soul.

The effects of the conscience ‘pulsing’ us of a negative action is usually seen in rationalizing it using the intellect… trying to make sense out of it and why it was right… when no one is questioning it to the one doing this. It is being done internally by the one person… like looking for justification.

And even the worst criminals have a conscience… they have just negated it with mental means, effectively over-riding it… pointing fingers all around rather then at themselves for doing it.

Interesting topic…
 
For me, ‘conscience’ has to do with ‘morality’. The commonness of our human condition brings in the ‘Golden Rule’. The conscience puts us in the others shoes, receiving what we are dishing out… and lets us know if it is morally right, or wrong. Meaning, would you like done to you what you are doing to another?
I agree. I think where I diagree with others and perhaps you is in equating that “tiny voice” with conscience. Conscience includes intellect whereas that “tiny voice” is the morality that has been ingrained in us through cultural conditioning.
 
Leela

Conscience includes intellect whereas that “tiny voice” is the morality that has been ingrained in us through cultural conditioning.

It would be correct to say that conscience can be corrupted by cultural conditioning, as in the case of those who rationalize that homosexuality is just an alternate life style, or that killing the unborn is o.k. Yet I think there remains in us that “tiny voice” that cannot ever be obliterated, that makes the mother of an aborted child have to struggle all her sad life to deal with the guilt of killing her own child.
 
But we know that the “tiny voice” can be misguided and tell us to do what we intellectually know is wrong like discriminating against people on the basis of race or sexual orientation. And we know that different people living in different cultures have “tiny voices” telling them different things than ours tells us. Such examples lead me to believe that this “tiny voice” is a cultural construct that has it’s benefits but needs to be overcome in certain situations where our upbringing taught us the wrong things.
Whatever term we want to use for it, what impresses me is that there seems to exist some sort of underlying knowledge of basic right and wrong that is consistent among people. We all know what it means to disrespect someone or be disrespected by them. We all know what it means to harm someone and what it feels like to have had harm done to us. We don’t need to learn it-we know it from the get-go.

Children have a strong sense of justice which becomes evident as soon as they’re able to express themselves with righteous indignation or moral outrage at some wrong done themselves or another-as well as a sense of guilt when they know they’ve done wrong. The fact that these senses or dispositions can be manipulated or exploited or twisted in us for someones’-or even our own-generally selfish interests doesn’t mean that their not real to begin with or not indicative of an innate knowledge and/or part of our psychical make-up.
 
Whatever term we want to use for it, what impresses me is that there seems to exist some sort of underlying knowledge of basic right and wrong that is consistent among people. We all know what it means to disrespect someone or be disrespected by them. We all know what it means to harm someone and what it feels like to have had harm done to us. We don’t need to learn it-we know it from the get-go.
I can’t see how we could learn “what it means to harm someone and what it feels like to have had harm done to us” without experiencing these things.
Children have a strong sense of justice which becomes evident as soon as they’re able to express themselves with righteous indignation or moral outrage at some wrong done themselves or another-as well as a sense of guilt when they know they’ve done wrong. The fact that these senses or dispositions can be manipulated or exploited or twisted in us for someones’-or even our own-generally selfish interests doesn’t mean that their not real to begin with or not indicative of an innate knowledge and/or part of our psychical make-up.
There actually is some evidence for what you say here since scientists see the same thing in monkeys:

"In a series of studies scientists have found that monkeys and apes can make judgments about fairness, offer altruistic help and empathise when a fellow animal is ill or in difficulties. They even appear to have consciences and the ability to remember obligations.

The research implies that morality is not a uniquely human quality and suggests it arose through evolution. That could mean the strength of our consciences is partly determined by our genes."

timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article5733638.ece

Best,
Leela
 
I can’t see how we could learn “what it means to harm someone and what it feels like to have had harm done to us” without experiencing these things.
We don’t need to learn to judge these things as wrongs-we know it intuitively as soon as we experience them
 
We don’t need to learn to judge these things as wrongs-we know it intuitively as soon as we experience them
I agree. I think the only difference is that you want to say that somehow we must have known rightness and wrongness in situations before we even had any experience of anything. But I agree that we have an innate value sensibility.

We can tell that the hot stove is a bad place to sit as soon as we sit on one and before we have any knowledge of stoves or heat or can think of any curses to scream.
 
I agree. I think the only difference is that you want to say that somehow we must have known rightness and wrongness in situations before we even had any experience of anything. But I agree that we have an innate value sensibility.

We can tell that the hot stove is a bad place to sit as soon as we sit on one and before we have any knowledge of stoves or heat or can think of any curses to scream.
OK, so what I mean is that this applies to justice or morality as well as to hot stoves. The average person experiences mental “pain” when they know an injustice has been done to them or when they, themselves, have committed an injustice on another. I’m not just saying that we have a construct which allows us to make judgments as to what is right or wrong but also that we already possess the knowledge or content in most cases about what exactly comprises right or wrong acts-IOW, we generally *know *a right or wrong act when we see one.
 
As to animal morality, that is doubtful. Moral decisions and acts have to have some kind of consequences that a person (not a mere animal) will be able to consider as right or wrong. If the right act is performed, the person is satisfied he has done right. If the wrong act is performed, guilt and remorse follow. I’m fairly certain that scientists cannot possibly measure the degree to which a monkey can contemplate either his sinful or saintly condition.
 
As to animal morality, that is doubtful. Moral decisions and acts have to have some kind of consequences that a person (not a mere animal) will be able to consider as right or wrong. If the right act is performed, the person is satisfied he has done right. If the wrong act is performed, guilt and remorse follow. I’m fairly certain that scientists cannot possibly measure the degree to which a monkey can contemplate either his sinful or saintly condition.
Whether scientists can measure the extent to which animals may be aware of their agitation or satisfaction in thieir choices is irrelevant to whether such awareness exists. And the degree to which monkeys may be self-aware of their own satisfaction or agitation is irrelevant to whether they experience such emotions in situations that involve fairness. In other words, all this talk about the subjectivity of other beings may never be understood, but nevertheless, by observing animal behavior we can see that monkeys deomnstrate altruism and a concern for fairness.

I agree that monkeys don’t have concepts at all let alone concepts of right and wrong, but they do have a sense fo what we would call right and wrong as exhibited in certain behaviors suggesting that moral behavior in humans may be a complicated mix of genetically encoded behavior, socially learned taboos, and conscious rational evaluation. I think that what you are talking about as the “tiny voice” and guilty fellings is socially based moralality that is maintained through emotional response brought about by social conditioning that is neither innate nor consciously intellectual.

Best,
Leela
 
Leela

Whether scientists can measure the extent to which animals may be aware of their agitation or satisfaction in thieir choices is irrelevant to whether such awareness exists.

If such scientific measurement is impossible, then how do you know that their moral “awareness,” as you call it, exists?
 
Leela

Whether scientists can measure the extent to which animals may be aware of their agitation or satisfaction in thieir choices is irrelevant to whether such awareness exists.

If such scientific measurement is impossible, then how do you know that their moral “awareness,” as you call it, exists?
I don’t think that animals hear any “tiny voice” if that’s what you mean. As for how we know, as I said, by observing animal behavior we can see that monkeys demonstrate altruism and a concern for fairness.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top