Contingent and Necessary Beings

[Geckle]

This question is derived from a thesis I wrote on this subject in college, but I was unable to find anyway out of what seems like a real problem that arises when non-contingent beings (such as ourselves) try to attribute literally anything to themselves without it linking back to a Creator. Let me try to explain (and I apologize if this is hard to follow).

The freedom I am dealing with here is the simple ability to choose rationally between two choices. There are many definitions of freedom, but this one is most relevant to the topic in question.

It would seem that in order to choose between choice A and choice B, we must know something about the two choices. True, we can make a blind choice, but that is not truly free; it’s just random.

In order to know something about the two choices, we must acquire knowledge about said choices. We have two sources of knowledge that can (as far as I can tell) account for 100% of our knowledge on any given subject, these being sometimes known as nature and nurture.

Nature takes into account what we are simply born with: Predispositions, natural intelligence, etc., while Nurture covers what our environment teaches us. Between the two, we come to form an understanding about the world.

Here’s the real problem: You would not (or should not) praise or blame someone for something that they have no control over, e.g. height, eye color, or something equally arbitrary. What then do humans have that is truly our own, and not simply some trait that has been “applied” to us?

We are, by definition, contingent or unnecessary beings. Our existence is not necessary like God’s is, but is dependent in every sense of the word. If I am a good mathematician, I can’t really praise myself for that ability, as it was simply given to me.

My question is this: What do we have that has not simply been given to us? And if the answer is “nothing” then what are we other than simple mechanistic creations that are moving in the only path possible?

I firmly believe in free will, but I have been trying to find a way out of this for over 5 years, and have yet to find a satisfactory solution. Thanks in advance for your time.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Here’s the real problem: You would not (or should not) praise or blame someone for something that they have no control over, e.g. height, eye color, or something equally arbitrary. What then do humans have that is truly our own, and not simply some trait that has been “applied” to us?

Nothing but the choices we make.

I firmly believe in free will,… .

Good, because you have it. It is given to you by God, but, the choices are your own. I think it’s important for you to understand that while as a Homo sapien, you are the result of the nature/nurture you spoke of. But as a human being, you are more. You are the synergy of H. sap and Spiritual Soul, a being able, unlike any other on the earth, able to stand outside of, apart from, your physical self and choose. And God does not interfere.

What are you truly? Every choice you have ever made or ever will.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

We have been given the freedom to chose. You are correct in stating that everything we have comes from God. Every gift we have been born with, every intellect or special ability, is in some way derived from God’s creation. We apply these gifts daily in order to live out our lives.

One of the fundamental gifts we’ve been given is the ability to chose. We have the capacity to apply our intellects, as informed by both nature and nurture, and arrive at a conclusion, which we may then either chose to acknowledge or reject.

As human beings, what we have that is truly ours is the accumulation of our choices. I Chose to marry my wife, therefore, having my wife is mine, it is my Choice. The capacity for the choice was set in motion by God, but it was ultimately up to me to chose it. Likewise, the situation which presented me with the opportunity was the result of my previous choices in life. I chose to study what I did, I chose to go to school where I did, etc.

These choices are the only thing which are truly ours, which is why, at the end of our lives, there are many who chose to walk away from God and into Hell. If our choices were not truly ours, then this would not be a possibility because such a choice pains God.

So, in short, the mechanism TO chose is a gift from God, as is the knowledge and capacity; but the CHOICE is ours, and ours alone.

Nothing but the choices we make.

Good, because you have it. It is given to you by God, but, the choices are your own. I think it’s important for you to understand that while as a Homo sapien, you are the result of the nature/nurture you spoke of. But as a human being, you are more. You are the synergy of H. sap and Spiritual Soul, a being able, unlike any other on the earth, able to stand outside of, apart from, your physical self and choose. And God does not interfere.

What are you truly? Every choice you have ever made or ever will.

aww, you beat me to it Oh well, your answer is much more to the point and succinct

 

[Linusthe2nd]

This question is derived from a thesis I wrote on this subject in college, but I was unable to find anyway out of what seems like a real problem that arises when non-contingent beings (such as ourselves) try to attribute literally anything to themselves without it linking back to a Creator. Let me try to explain (and I apologize if this is hard to follow).

The freedom I am dealing with here is the simple ability to choose rationally between two choices. There are many definitions of freedom, but this one is most relevant to the topic in question.

It would seem that in order to choose between choice A and choice B, we must know something about the two choices. True, we can make a blind choice, but that is not truly free; it’s just random.

In order to know something about the two choices, we must acquire knowledge about said choices. We have two sources of knowledge that can (as far as I can tell) account for 100% of our knowledge on any given subject, these being sometimes known as nature and nurture.

Nature takes into account what we are simply born with: Predispositions, natural intelligence, etc., while Nurture covers what our environment teaches us. Between the two, we come to form an understanding about the world.

Here’s the real problem: You would not (or should not) praise or blame someone for something that they have no control over, e.g. height, eye color, or something equally arbitrary. What then do humans have that is truly our own, and not simply some trait that has been “applied” to us?

We are, by definition, contingent or unnecessary beings. Our existence is not necessary like God’s is, but is dependent in every sense of the word. If I am a good mathematician, I can’t really praise myself for that ability, as it was simply given to me.

My question is this: What do we have that has not simply been given to us? And if the answer is “nothing” then what are we other than simple mechanistic creations that are moving in the only path possible?

I firmly believe in free will, but I have been trying to find a way out of this for over 5 years, and have yet to find a satisfactory solution. Thanks in advance for your time.

By faith we know that we have been given an immortal soul, endowed with intellect, will, and memory, which is the substantial form of the body. We are true beings composed of a body and a spiritual, intellectual soul.

We accept as self evident, since we have been given our existence and operations by God, that we can look out upon the world and see it as it actually is and make valid judgments about what we see. We also know we have been given a conscience by which we can make valid judgments about the morality of any choice we need to make, judging the morality according as it accords or not to the dictates of our conscinece weighed against the moral law, made known to our intellect as a gift of God, and validly interpreted by the Church. If we have studied the moral law sufficiently and the Church’s intrepretation of it, we know enough to freely choose what is good.

Does that work?

 

[Julia_Mae]

These choices are the only thing which are truly ours, which is why, at the end of our lives, there are many who chose to walk away from God and into Hell. If our choices were not truly ours, then this would not be a possibility because such a choice pains God.

So, in short, the mechanism TO chose is a gift from God, as is the knowledge and capacity; but the CHOICE is ours, and ours alone.

aww, you beat me to it

By mere seconds! It was so cool seeing your answer.

Oh well, your answer is much more to the point and succinct

I don’t know about that, but you making the connection that we know they are ours because we can choose hell, that’s a deal-maker.

 

[Geckle]

First, thanks for your collective willingness to answer, but I believe there’s still a problem.

By faith we know that we have been given an immortal soul, endowed with intellect, will, and memory, which is the substantial form of the body. We are true beings composed of a body and a spiritual, intellectual soul.

While I agree with the above, I’'m trying to resolve this logically, not through faith.

We accept as self evident, since we have been given our existence and operations by God, that we can look out upon the world and see it as it actually is and make valid judgments about what we see. We also know we have been given a conscience by which we can make valid judgments about the morality of any choice we need to make, judging the morality according as it accords or not to the dictates of our conscience weighed against the moral law, made known to our intellect as a gift of God, and validly interpreted by the Church. If we have studied the moral law sufficiently and the Church’s interpretation of it, we know enough to freely choose what is good.

Ok, if I understand you, you are saying that we make our decisions through a combination of knowledge and conscience. Again, I agree, but both of those things have been given to us, added on to us if you will, and had they not been, we would not be able to freely choose.

Also, I still have a problem with the fact that if we have no knowledge of 2 choices we cannot choose between them, and if we have knowledge, that knowledge does not come from itself. You would not praise a dog for having pink fur if you had just painted it pink. The coloration comes entirely from you, not the dog. In reality, if you think the dog looks better, you would praise the owner for painting him as such. God is the same way. If I praise someone for his intelligence, am I not in actuality praising God for imbuing him with said intelligence?

So, in short, the mechanism TO chose is a gift from God, as is the knowledge and capacity; but the CHOICE is ours, and ours alone.

Sounds nice and simple, but I’m having a hard time seeing any difference.

As I understand it (logically mind you, not that I believe my own argument) how can we have some well of free will that is A somehow more than a combination of our acquired knowledge, but actually links back to the individual? It seems that if you don’t use the knowledge that God has given you, you are blind, and if you do, you are nothing but a puppet controlled by a true Necessary Being.

This line of thought is somewhat parallel to the proof for God’s existence stemming from infinite regression, or first cause. If, as an unnecessary being, I must attribute literally everything about myself to a true Necessary being, what about me is actually my own?

 

[Peter_Plato]

My question is this: What do we have that has not simply been given to us? And if the answer is “nothing” then what are we other than simple mechanistic creations that are moving in the only path possible?

I firmly believe in free will, but I have been trying to find a way out of this for over 5 years, and have yet to find a satisfactory solution. Thanks in advance for your time.

I think you are looking for some insight in terms of a “mechanism” by which free will is possible. My own thought is that our freedom is actually contingent upon the grace and omnipotent power of God. It is not something we have, but a capacity that we can actualize.

A few weeks ago I posted this on another thread

Having free will does not mean merely “doing what we want” because our wills have been deformed by sin. Our “choices,” in and of themselves and apart from the grace of God, are mostly compulsive or addictive responses to external forces. However, our awareness or consciousness is the gate to freedom. Our consciousness is the “light” that streams into our beings, the light of Christ the Logos that can show us the Truth to guide our choices towards freedom. That freedom comes from the Holy Spirit who gives us the power to be free - free from our addictions and compulsions. Our identities (who we are) are forged by the possibility of the choices we make and ironically, we become more real and more free, and thus more a “self” when we are freed from the compulsive and addictive responses to wants and appetites to make grace powered choices that form a true “self” that has “the power to initiate action independent of the causal order.”

Like Augustine, I believe we have always, in front of us a fundamental option, the choice between living by the power and freedom of God (grace) or not (sin). We become ontologically more free when we act in harmony with grace and ontologically less free or addicted when we do not. Identity is the thin edge of the sword between these two ways of being. The choice to be free and live by grace is ours. If we choose not to we necessarily become enslaved or addicted to our appetites and desires.

Hence, freedom is not a right, but a capacity granted by God through grace to those who live in harmony with his will.

Here are some passages from Scripture that support the idea.

*

John 8:32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
​

Romans 8:2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

Galatians 5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.*

An analogy might be helpful. Think of a sailing ship. Your will is the navigator with a hand on the rudder. Grace is the power (the wind in the sails) that can move the ship forward to discover the vast universe of good that God has created and ultimately God Himself. Christ is the light ( the sunlight in our consciousness) that allows us to navigate and see where we are going. Just moving the rudder (making choices) is not going to get us anywhere because the power to move the ship is not in the navigator (will) but in the wind (will of God). So our fundamental choice is comprised of two actions. 1) Raising the sails to harness the power of the wind (having right order in our choices to do the will of God, i.e., what is good and right) and 2) moving the rudder in coordination with the wind (grace) to navigate through perilous waters (making grace-filled immediate choices each day regarding specific options that come our way.)

The fact that we can make choices is what gives us identity as individuals but the power to follow through comes from grace (the power of the wind that moves us) Recall Jesus’ words about the Holy Spirit. “The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” (John 3:8)

It was in the How to argue against God’s will = evil thread

In a very real sense our freedom amounts to a freedom to choose, but what empowers our choices is grace freely available at each moment in our lives. I believe this is fundamentally what Augustine was getting at in his treatise On Grace and Free Will.

 

[Geckle]

Thanks for the response, I think you have made the most headway so far. However,

Identity is the thin edge of the sword between these two ways of being

–as I can tell, the edge is nonexistent, wavering between the nonidentity of simply being a generic collection of attributes, and the blasphemy of claiming anything about us is necessary or independent, as the only Being that can claim the latter is God.

I think you are looking for some insight in terms of a “mechanism” by which free will is possible. My own thought is that our freedom is actually contingent upon the grace and omnipotent power of God. It is not something we have, but a capacity that we can actualize.

I really like this part, and if you could elaborate on this section specifically I’d appreciate it. How would you differentiate the what we “have” with a capacity to actualize? And don’t think I didn’t read the quote you posted, but I am indeed looking for a mechanistic understanding of choice. Like my pink dog analogy, I’m just trying to find some way to praise the dog without having to talk to it’s owner.

 

[Julia_Mae]

It seems that if you don’t use the knowledge that God has given you, you are blind, and if you do, you are nothing but a puppet controlled by a true Necessary Being.

If your mechanic says you you need a brake job and you get one, do you think he is controlling you?

And why are there only two choices? There are lots of choices in almost all life situations.

If, as an unnecessary being, I must attribute literally everything about myself to a true Necessary being, what about me is actually my own?

We told you, you don’t seem to like the answer.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Thanks for the response, I think you have made the most headway so far. However, --as I can tell, the edge is nonexistent, wavering between the nonidentity of simply being a generic collection of attributes, and the blasphemy of claiming anything about us is necessary or independent, as the only Being that can claim the latter is God.

I am not clear that claiming “anything about us is independent” is blasphemy (I don’t see that our necessity is anywhere implied.). To be a free agent means the capacity to originate. To have an identity means to be one’s own being and to bear responsibility. That is not necessarily blasphemous. It could be that God himself made us uniquely ourselves, uniquely free to act, with the ability to tune into or move away from his grace. It is the dynamic of availing ourselves of his grace that lifts us from the necessity of deterministic behaviour. It is this same dynamic that gives each of us our unique identity which is our gift back to God, I.e., how we use his grace (freedom) allows for a measure of freedom from the causal order. Since his grace is freely given to us to be utilized to carve out our identity over time, it is the interplay between grace, choice and the constraints of the natural world that allows us to embody freedom without being determined by the causal order.

God cooperates with us through his grace but gives us a measure of freedom as to how we will instrumentally use his grace to make ourselves who we are.

I really like this part, and if you could elaborate on this section specifically I’d appreciate it. How would you differentiate the what we “have” with a capacity to actualize? And don’t think I didn’t read the quote you posted, but I am indeed looking for a mechanistic understanding of choice. Like my pink dog analogy, I’m just trying to find some way to praise the dog without having to talk to it’s owner.

What we ‘have’ is essentially malleable. God avails us of grace (the power to have real effect on the natural world) but at the same time the rich “materials” available in the causal order provide a medium in which that freedom can make an indelible impression. Who we are (the agent will that abides on the boundary between the material world and God’s grace) also takes shape or character by choices made.

Make no mistake, grace is not some disembodied force, but God’s love, in a sense God himself, providing the exemplary form (God’s will) that can fully be incorporated into our choices, but need not be. Again, it is the dynamic interplay between the grace of God made available to us and the causally determined order that can be altered by grace that will form us into free and morally good agents. Or we can choose to abdicate the freeing power of God’s grace and follow compulsive natural forces to become characters more and more addicted to the causal order.

To be clear the edge is not “non-existent” the edge is your identity, who you are that is formed by your choices in the dynamic interplay between God’s grace and the physical world. It is your choices each moment that form the edge.

 

[Geckle]

@Julia Mae

If your mechanic says you you need a brake job and you get one, do you think he is controlling you?

And why are there only two choices? There are lots of choices in almost all life situations.

There are indeed lots of life choices, but when I was speaking about knowledge, you can include every scenario by saying you are either using knowledge or not using it. That’s all I meant there. Regarding your mechanic example, I’m not sure how it’s relavent; the brake is not a part of you, so of course you are not being controlled.

@Peter Plato:

The blasphemy I was referring to stems from the notion that we are, in any way, as necessary as God on the substantial level.

To have an identity means to be one’s own being and to bear responsibility.

If you don’t mind, I’d like to continue from this sentence. We claim that our identity is our own, but we also claim that our identity is formed by our choices. We cannot make an informed choice without knowledge, and we only have knowledge because it has been tacked on to us (either inherently, or by experience, but everyone must begin with 0 experience, so you still need a starting point).

So what are we left with? God **gives **us grace to make our choices easier/informed, He **gives **us knowledge inherently, He **gives **us the ability to learn from experience. Each gift must be given to something, but there is nothing about us that is not a gift. Every advantage or ability we have has been tacked on as arbitrarily (which is not to say unintentionally) as the dog’s pink fur.

This is similar in form to substance and accidents, although I don’t really want to open that can of worms right now. I still can’t find a substance that is truly essential to the extent that it is not just something added on, or applied.

Thanks for your patience thus far…

 

[Peter_Plato]

@Peter Plato:

So what are we left with? God **gives **us grace to make our choices easier/informed, He **gives **us knowledge inherently, He **gives **us the ability to learn from experience. Each gift must be given to something, but there is nothing about us that is not a gift. Every advantage or ability we have has been tacked on as arbitrarily (which is not to say unintentionally) as the dog’s pink fur.

Thanks for your patience thus far…

First of all I think Trent Horn in one of the recent Catholic Answers radio shows answered a caller who made the argument from determinism, that if consciousness is the result of the neurological functioning of our brains, then free choice is effectively impossible. The caller made the point that neurological experiments have demonstrated conclusively that a physiological stimulus applied to the brain causes effects in the conscious states of the person, therefore a cause-effect relationship has been demonstrated.

Trent gave a very good answer to the argument.
Listen to the answer here beginning at about the 45:35 time code.
catholic.com/sites/default/files/audio/radioshows/ca120924a.mp3

The answer might be insightful for you as you ponder this issue.

Your claim in the quote above seems to be that since the qualities endowed by God’s graces are “God determined” then freedom cannot be achieved apart from these determined qualities. Hence the “pink fur” analogy. My answer is that these qualities are not necessarily determined in the way you presume them. What if the qualities are “powers to…” that are in a sense without content. The power to think, the power to act free from the causal chain, the power to form your own identity, the power to form conscience, etc. without determining the content that would form you as a particular person in a particular way.

The seven catholic virtues made up of the 4 cardinal virtues of prudence, justice, restraint or temperance, and courage or fortitude and the 3 theological virtues of faith, hope, and love or charity are contentless but instead are virtues or powers that empower flexibility and options “above” a determined course.

So in the real world as you go about your day, the “given” aspects (situations, people, etc.) of daily life are the raw materials that are given in a variety and plenitude that the choices you make in what you accept and reject, believe or not, act upon or not, etc. are precisely what forms you as a unique individual over time. God provides the power to… through his grace (virtues) but you have the option of making use of that power or not (or partially to some degree), in the choices you make, reasoning you accept, actions you take, etc. to determine your own identity through time.

An example would be the power to reason. In a very real sense, the content of reasoning is blank. The truth is there and available, the power through grace to see clearly is there, but the extent to which we actually utilize the power is left open to us. We can pursue the truth to as full a degree as possible or choose not to even think about it or give it any value at all. This coincides with our experiences, because as day to day situations arise, we constantly find ourselves in the “predicament” of thinking through the relevant aspects of the choice or action, ignoring some, weighting others higher, etc.

By truth here I mean moral and practical wisdom rather than something like scientific or mathematical knowledge, although there could be graces that apply in these areas as well. (Open mindedness, perseverance, fair judgement, insight, etc.,)

As your character is formed over time, there may be additional powers (graces) to change that formation and become other than the person that you have determined yourself to be up to that point.

Does that add any clarity?