Contraception and Protestant friends..? Help

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GraceDK

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“For those who are filled with the Holy Spirit contraception is simply unthinkable”, writes Christopher West and I find that highly problematic. I have grown up not even knowing that there were anyone in the world who were against contraception. And I have met very many happy, thriving and holy couples who use artificial birth-control because their church doesn’t teach them that it is wrong or simply does not agree with catholic teaching.

Now I have a lutheran friend and we got into a dialog about this topic yesterday. I tried to explain the Catholic reasons for saying no to artificial brith control but after having given all the famous reasons he still did not agree with me. I on the other hand, told him that I understand his objections that mainly go like this:
  • There are many ways that sposes can use and objectify the other. But the intention of the heart must be the crucial thing. If there is no intention of using his/her spouse and they are living in agrement on the matter then how can I claim that there is exploitation going on. All sin starts in the heart as Jesus says, if there is no feeling of exploitation in a couple, neither as intention or effect, then the argument falls. (we agreed that the reason why many catholics may feel used if their husband or wife used abc could imply be because they have internalised this view through their upbringing - been told that condoms equals being used).
  • He also said that he understands that according to the Bible its logical to think that sex must be wholly unitive and wholly open to life. But again he turned to the question of intention. God is a God that looks at our heart… The rubber might not catch His eye as much as the intention of having sex without conceiving. And this intention is there when people use NFP to avoid pregnancy.
    The intention of the heart is the centre of my friends focus. I found that he was in a way more radical than the Church for he said: I could accept your teachings but then I would have to take the radical consequences and be like Hasidid Jews who only have sex once a month when their wife is fertile.
I did not really know how to reply. It seemed that he was right about these things. God is Spirit as it is written… we can never think that as long as we do some things right in the material realm we are good… God sees the heart, the intention. Why are we having sex… God knows. And I told my friend I’d get back to him about the matter and that we should both study the question further.
Having grown up as a Lutheran too, I understand where he is coming from. The Lutheran tradition is in a good way a tradition that does not tolerate hypocracy and that focuses on the inner state rather than what can be seen.

So… what do you guys think? I really wanna convince this guy, who is very clever and thoughtful, of the Catholic stance… I tried telling him that the continuation of our Tradition is also a proof that the teaching is right, but he does not buy that. He means it can be very questionable even if it was 10.000 years old.

So this is a touch question… and I ask that only those who really have deep and studied knowlege - and who have thought through the reasonable criticism on the area will attempt to help here, because as I said, he is well aware of many of the arguments.

I look forward to your help…
Grace <>< (Denmark)
 
First of all I would agree that intention of the heart matters, but his ABC argument fails because you can use ABC and NFP incorrectly. He is correct to say the ABC and NFP are the same in this respect. However, it is inncorrect to say that sex is a procreative act exclusivly. It also is a sharing of love toward your spouse, much like Jesus and his bride the Church. Jesus gives Himself up for his Church, and we give ourselves up for Him. It is a sarifical love. Where does ABC fail the test though? Well we have to look at how each method enacts the desired result. NFP is an examination of a woman’s cycle to tell when she is fertile. When a couple is trying to avoid pregnacy for the correct reasons (health, financial, etc.), the couple abstains from sex, so that there is no conception. Now the pill (I think it is safe to assume the most used form of ABC) primarily prevents an egg from dropping. However, it also makes the uterus inihabitable for a fertilized egg to implant. Therefore, an few day old child is now unable to live. One can look at the insert (we have these in the US) of a prescription to see how the pill works. There is also health organizations that are now starting to say that the pill can cause cancer. So now one can have sex anytime they want without fear of conception, but I could kill someone or hurt you in the process, how loving. Now on to barrier methods. One simple question, how can you love someone by putting up a barrier? Also, in the NFP class that me and my wife took, there was mention that the latex in condoms can harm the inside of a woman. I have not looked for any more sources on this. Like I said before, your friend is correct in focusing in on attention, but NFP is more likely to have the correct intention than ABC. I would also suggest “Theology of the Body for Beginners”, from what I understand it will go into more detail than we could go into here.
 
Grace,

If “intention of the heart” were the only thing that mattered to God, and not our ACTIONS and MEANS of achieving those intentions, then if my “intention” were to provide for my family then my bank robbery would be morally acceptable.

Come on, give me a break. This is moral relativism at its finest. Your friend does not recognize that he is being relativistic and succumbing to this false teaching.

I suggest you get a couple of resources from www.omsoul.com and start reading if you want to prepare for an effective witness to this man.

I can recommend Janet Smith’s Contraception Why Not (audio CD), The Bible And Birth Control by Charles Provan (not a Catholic), and several of their brochures on why contraception is contrary to God’s Law. Go search around their site.
 
ArAnMike said:
Now the pill (I think it is safe to assume the most used form of ABC) primarily prevents an egg from dropping. However, it also makes the uterus inihabitable for a fertilized egg to implant. Therefore, an few day old child is now unable to live. One can look at the insert (we have these in the US) of a prescription to see how the pill works.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, package inserts that outline ‘the pill’s’ abortifacient mechanism is not ‘available’ to the patient… it explicitly states ‘for the physician or pharmacist’. One box of 6 birth control packages actually only comes with only ONE physician’s insert, and 6 ‘neutered’ and watered down patient inserts. If you ask your friendly pharmacist for the ‘physician’s package insert’ that ‘outlines the mechanisms of action’, then they may give you one just because they’ve never heard a patient ask for such a thing!

Regardless, you can be certain that EVERY hormonal birth control product outlines the abortifacient mechanism of action ONLY in the physician/pharmacist insert. The language you will be looking for is the 3rd mechanism which states something to the effect that this medication “renders the endometrium incapable of receiving the fertilized egg”, or “thinning of the endometrium”, or other such language referring to the changes that the endometrium undergoes under said therapy.

Happy researching!

Doc Aaron
 
1ke said:
Grace,

If “intention of the heart” were the only thing that mattered to God, and not our ACTIONS and MEANS of achieving those intentions, then if my “intention” were to provide for my family then my bank robbery would be morally acceptable.

Come on, give me a break. This is moral relativism at its finest.
Click to expand...
THANK YOU. The killing of the unborn is nothing to be making excuses for, and the aborting of humans created in the image of God is an unspeakable evil… regardless of one’s motives.
 
Hi GraceDK

Have you or your friend given any thought to God’s gift of human fertility or what contraception does to that gift?

Catholicism does not teach that a desire to postpone pregnancy necessarily keeps us from being “open to life”. Catholicism does teach that thwarting our God-given fertility with contraception always keeps us from being “open to life”.

NFP does not thwart fertility, but gives us information we can use to work with our fertility in an attempt to achieve or avoid pregnancy.

Only Catholicism teaches that fertility is always good. Why do you think Catholicism teaches this? Why do Lutherans teach differently? Our relative fertility is determined by God. Why should we tamper with His perfect design?
 
1ke said:
Come on, give me a break. This is moral relativism at its finest. Your friend does not recognize that he is being relativistic and succumbing to this false teaching.
Click to expand...
This is very true. It seems sincerity is the exclusive measure we use to determine how to act. Sincerely wrong is still wrong.
 
GraceDK said:
“For those who are filled with the Holy Spirit contraception is simply unthinkable”, writes Christopher West and I find that highly problematic. I have grown up not even knowing that there were anyone in the world who were against contraception. And I have met very many happy, thriving and holy couples who use artificial birth-control because their church doesn’t teach them that it is wrong or simply does not agree with catholic teaching.

Now I have a lutheran friend and we got into a dialog about this topic yesterday. I tried to explain the Catholic reasons for saying no to artificial brith control but after having given all the famous reasons he still did not agree with me. I on the other hand, told him that I understand his objections that mainly go like this:
  • There are many ways that sposes can use and objectify the other. But the intention of the heart must be the crucial thing. If there is no intention of using his/her spouse and they are living in agrement on the matter then how can I claim that there is exploitation going on. All sin starts in the heart as Jesus says, if there is no feeling of exploitation in a couple, neither as intention or effect, then the argument falls. (we agreed that the reason why many catholics may feel used if their husband or wife used abc could imply be because they have internalised this view through their upbringing - been told that condoms equals being used).
Click to expand...
  1. When did the Lutherans accept the use of contraception? (hint: not before 1930)
  2. Whatever two consenting adults do in the privacy of their own home is OK?
  • He also said that he understands that according to the Bible its logical to think that sex must be wholly unitive and wholly open to life. But again he turned to the question of intention. God is a God that looks at our heart… The rubber might not catch His eye as much as the intention of having sex without conceiving. And this intention is there when people use NFP to avoid pregnancy.
Click to expand...
Scripture supports the Catholic position. Good. He equates non-conception with contra-ception.
The intention of the heart is the centre of my friends focus. I found that he was in a way more radical than the Church for he said: I could accept your teachings but then I would have to take the radical consequences and be like Hasidid Jews who only have sex once a month when their wife is fertile.
Click to expand...
That is because he does not understand NFP.
I did not really know how to reply. It seemed that he was right about these things. God is Spirit as it is written… we can never think that as long as we do some things right in the material realm we are good…
Click to expand...
This would not excuse doing the wrong thing when we know what the right thing is.
God sees the heart, the intention. Why are we having sex… God knows. And I told my friend I’d get back to him about the matter and that we should both study the question further.
Having grown up as a Lutheran too, I understand where he is coming from. The Lutheran tradition is in a good way a tradition that does not tolerate hypocracy and that focuses on the inner state rather than what can be seen.

So… what do you guys think? I really wanna convince this guy, who is very clever and thoughtful, of the Catholic stance… I tried telling him that the continuation of our Tradition is also a proof that the teaching is right, but he does not buy that. He means it can be very questionable even if it was 10.000 years old.

So this is a touch question… and I ask that only those who really have deep and studied knowlege - and who have thought through the reasonable criticism on the area will attempt to help here, because as I said, he is well aware of many of the arguments.

I look forward to your help…
Grace <>< (Denmark)
Click to expand...
Man! Is English your native language? If not, you get an A+!

I see you have been looking at Christopher West’s materials. They are excellent. Also find John Kippley’s little books on contraception and the marriage covenant . . .

Good luck.
 
…“But the intention of the heart must be the crucial thing.”

This is what your friend bases his argument on…but here is my 2 cents.

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it? JEREMIAH 17:9

I am not a bibical scholar…but I think God tells us this because our hearts can easily deceive us. The laws of the Church are in place for a reason. They are not there to burden us…but to deliever us from harm and evil.

God Bless and keep praying for wisdom…it helps you not get swayed by society or false teaching.🙂
 
GraceDK said:
Having grown up as a Lutheran too, I understand where he is coming from. The Lutheran tradition is in a good way a tradition that does not tolerate hypocracy and that focuses on the inner state rather than what can be seen.

Grace <>< (Denmark)
Click to expand...
Since you mentioned Lutheran tradition, the links below show the historical Lutheran, as well as other traditions.

touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=20-04-020-f
This isn’t your usual Catholic propaganda either. This source is Protestant.

catholic.com/radio/event.php?calendar=1&category=0&event=4415&date=2006-12-29
This link is for a Wisconsin Synod Lutheran who was a guest on Catholic Radio. Yes, Catholic Radio.

Check these out and see for yourself why almost every denomination has changed its teaching about contraception.
 
Isn’t artificial birth control the absolute loudest way to shout “NO!” to God’s gifts? Or to say to God “I don’t trust You”? When you pray the Lord’s Prayer while contracepting on ABC, do you mean it when you say “Thy Will be done”? Or do you insert “except for how many children I will bear”.
 
devinemercy said:
…“But the intention of the heart must be the crucial thing.”

This is what your friend bases his argument on…but here is my 2 cents.

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it? JEREMIAH 17:9

I am not a bibical scholar…but I think God tells us this because our hearts can easily deceive us. The laws of the Church are in place for a reason. They are not there to burden us…but to deliever us from harm and evil.

God Bless and keep praying for wisdom…it helps you not get swayed by society or false teaching.🙂
Click to expand...
Nice job. Well said my friend.
 
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