Contraception

[lovemyboys]

Ahh… but ARE they takling any more risk than using an artificial method of birth control?

Let us not forget: there is NO method of ABC that is 100% effective.

Taking the pill, with a, 99.9% effective rate (whic, I don’t think even exist, but let’s go with that)

That means that for every 100 times that you have sexual intercourse, there may be one child conceived.

Trust me: women get pregnant on the pill EVERY DAY!

Using the Natural Family Planning… if you use it, can be as effective, in fact, more so.

Basically, NFP means not having sex when the woman CAN conceive. Using ABC means that you take the risk of getting pregnant, period

I know all that… I was referring to the temptation to be permanently sterilized (surgically).

 

[Iowa_Mike]

Iowa Mike;6360205:

Tim,

A couple of points to add to your remarks:

1. The apostles, who ate, drank, talked, walked, prayed and played with Jesus taught that contraception was wrong. Look up the Teachings of the Twelve Apostles to the Nations in the Didache, believed to be the oldest existing non-Scriptural Christian writing:

. . . thou shalt not use magic; thou shalt not use philters; . . . (II, 2)

(A “philter” is translated to be a magic potion. In those days the two primary purposes for magic potions (drugs) were abortion and artificial contraception.)

I suggest people of faith take the advice of the Apostles rather than secularists or relative moralists. In addition, Gandhi, Luther, Wesley, Calvin etc. etc. all condemned contraception. (end quote)

The opinions of non-Catholics such as Gandhi, Luther etc. are irrelevant to Catholics, I’d have thought.

This ‘advice of the Apostles’ you cite. Explain to me why the Church does not itself quote this document, if it is so important?

The fact that ‘the Teaching of the Twelve Apostles’ is never quoted in homilies, and does not appear in the Catechism means, surely, that either its authenticity is suspect or its teaching is in error.

Iowa Mike;6360205:

Tim,

A couple of points to add to your remarks:

1. The apostles, who ate, drank, talked, walked, prayed and played with Jesus taught that contraception was wrong. Look up the Teachings of the Twelve Apostles to the Nations in the Didache, believed to be the oldest existing non-Scriptural Christian writing:

. . . thou shalt not use magic; thou shalt not use philters; . . . (II, 2)

(A “philter” is translated to be a magic potion. In those days the two primary purposes for magic potions (drugs) were abortion and artificial contraception.)

I suggest people of faith take the advice of the Apostles rather than secularists or relative moralists. In addition, Gandhi, Luther, Wesley, Calvin etc. etc. all condemned contraception. (end quote)

The opinions of non-Catholics such as Gandhi, Luther etc. are irrelevant to Catholics, I’d have thought.

The following is Paperweight’s comment in response to my post:

This ‘advice of the Apostles’ you cite. Explain to me why the Church does not itself quote this document, if it is so important?

The fact that ‘the Teaching of the Twelve Apostles’ is never quoted in homilies, and does not appear in the Catechism means, surely, that either its authenticity is suspect or its teaching is in error.

As I said above the Didache is believed to be the earliest existing “non-Scriputal Christian writings”, they are not inspired writings so you don’t have to believe them if you don’t want to. I’m no biblical scholar but I suspect ancient documents and old language bibles are not used today because they are harder for people to understand and translate into today’s vernacular. For example, while the Douay-Raimes Bible is the most faithful translation of St. Jerome’s Latin Vulgate; it is not widely used because, in my opinion, it is much harder to understand than the New American Bible or any other modern translation. As an example check out the following two passages from Psalms that speak to contraception, one from Douay-Raimes and the other from the New American Bible and judge for yourself:

Douay-Raimes:

Psalm 126:3-5

3 Behold the inheritance of the Lord are children: the reward, the fruit of the womb. 4 As arrows in the hand of the mighty, so the children of them that have been shaken. 5 Blessed is the man that hath filled the desire with them; he shall not be confounded when he shall speak to his enemies in the gate.

New American Bible:

Psalm 127:3-5

3 Children too are a gift from the Lord, the fruit of the womb, a reward. 4 Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the children born in one’s youth. 5 Blessed are they whose quivers are full. They will never be shamed contending with foes at the gate.

The Didache is also written in ancient vernacular and, like the Douay-Raimes, is also more difficult to understand than modern vernacular. However, if you will take the time to read one of the many translations of the Didache and do a little research you will find if full of teachings commonly included in today’s homilies. In addition the work is cited by Eusebius who lived from 260 - 341 and Athanasius (293-373) It seems to be referenced by Origen who lived from 185-254. In the Didache, 16:2-3 is quoted in the Epistle of Barnabbas in 4:9, or vice versa.

**Note I lifted this bit from one of the translations.

There is really nothing to debate here, the Didache is a fact.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[Petergee]

The opinions of non-Catholics such as Gandhi, Luther etc. are irrelevant to Catholics, I’d have thought.

Relevant in that all major Christian bodies before 1930, and even most acknowledged non-Christian moral authorities, taught that contraception is immoral. When the Anglicans became the first major Christian group to allow contraception (in very limited circumstances) in 1930, even the secular media laughed at their illogicallity.

This ‘advice of the Apostles’ you cite. Explain to me why the Church does not itself quote this document, if it is so important?

The fact that ‘the Teaching of the Twelve Apostles’ is never quoted in homilies, and does not appear in the Catechism means, surely, that either its authenticity is suspect or its teaching is in error.

Look again. The Catechism of the Catholic Church directly quotes The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles at least seven times.

 

[Petergee]

What I think makes those couples special is taking the risk of pregnancy at all when it could cause the woman to die-- I think most people in that position would go for sterilization (and priests will often give special permission to couples in that situation (right or wrong, that’s what I know to be true)).

I don’t doubt that such priests who purport to give such “permission” can be found if one “shops around”. but no priest can give anyone permission to sin ( as I’m sure you know).

To me, they are amazing. I probably shouldn’t call any person on this Earth “saintly,” though.

Nah, I had no problem calling say, Bl Teresa of Calcutta “saintly” during her earthly life.

 

[paperwight]

Look again. The Catechism of the Catholic Church directly quotes The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles at least seven times.

I stand corrected, then. Could you spell out the actual references, please? Are they concerning contraception?
Thank you.

 

[Petergee]

I stand corrected, then. Could you spell out the actual references, please? Are they concerning contraception?
Thank you.

Certainly. These are all direct, deliberate verbatim quotes (not counting the indirect paraphrases and allusions):
Didache 1:1 in CCC 1696
Didache 2:2 in CCC 2271(*“You shall not kill the embryo …” *- as hormonal “contraceptives” frequently do)
Didasche 8:2 in CCC 2760
Didache 8:3 in CCC2767
Didache 9:5 in CCC1331
Didache 10:6 in CCC 1331 and 1403.

The CCC does not directly quote the Didache passage referred to above re contraceptives, but it does quote the more conmprehensive restatement of this doctrine in Pope Paul VI’s Humanae Vitae:
“Every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible, is intrinsically evil”. Absolutely no “wriggle room” there.