Controlling behaviour and reasonable requests

[strngrnrth]

Hmm… You’re not going to like my answer. However, I must admit that if I were in the situation of that man, I would be distressed. I wouldn’t go as far as the given example, of course, but I understand the sentiment. There would be something wrong with the fact a woman did not like to look pretty for her husband, especially in such circumstances as an abrupt, undiscussed change in appearance, for utility over prettiness or for some other such reason.

People ought to take into account and take seriously their spouses’ opinions about their looks as ONE of many factors in how they look, not the only factor. If she knows you like long hair, and she cuts hers anyway, she has a reason and it’s probably a good reason. If she consistently does the opposite of what you ask her to do with her appearance and sneers at you over it, she’s sending a message, IMO, but I’ve cut my hair when my BF didn’t want me to and I had good reasons. I still tried to look good in a style that was my own, of course.

Women also cut hair as a statement, such as after a break-up. Such a demonstration of independence would be troubling in a marriage.

Moreover, there would be something wrong with baiting a man using good looks and then, after the wedding, cutting the perks since the fish has already caught the bait.

However, if I saw my hypothetical beloved lady losing herself a bit in a friendship with a man, I would feel not so much threatened as deprived of something. Since that something wouldn’t belong to me, I suppose we could call it shortchanging.

Of what? It’s a friendship. Did you expect a wife to have no friends? Do you have friends?

Spending the night has so many shades of meaning, it depends on many things. In a subculture where getting home is tricky, most people have a lot of friends who are expected to help one another out, the sense of a home as a fortress is all but unknown and few people drive or at least few ever have any gas, staying the night in some convenient place is very common and means nothing at all. In a subculture of affluence and isolated households, it would be very weird, sure. It depends on who the people in question are.

 

[strngrnrth]

I’m sorry, I wish I knew Gaelic. I recognize it by sight and sound but there are few words that I actually know. My grandparents were Irish (Mother’s Side). Your signature is the Lord’s Prayer right?

It is, and my post means, “Thank you. I’m an American but I love the Irish language, and what about you?”

 

[chevalier]

People ought to take into account and take seriously their spouses’ opinions about their looks as ONE of many factors in how they look, not the only factor.

On the one hand, that’s somewhat true, on the other hand, a spouse is not one of the many people. Consequently, his or her opinion is not just one of the many concerns. I would concentrate on the spouse’s feelings rather than opinion, though. Opinion sounds like judgement or approval, which doesn’t ring too well.

If she knows you like long hair, and she cuts hers anyway, she has a reason and it’s probably a good reason.

Perhaps, perhaps not. Depends. In one situation, it will be a very good aesthetic or health-related or functional reason. In the other, it will be a whim or a desire to manifest independence.

If she consistently does the opposite of what you ask her to do with her appearance and sneers at you over it, she’s sending a message, IMO,

Not only with apperance. Generally, that would tend to be either incompatibility or some sort of confrontational attitude. Troubling in a relationship with another person.

but I’ve cut my hair when my BF didn’t want me to and I had good reasons. I still tried to look good in a style that was my own, of course.

The latter part is somewhat key…

Don’t tell me you’ve never seen a woman do that. It’s practically a cliche. Ask around, look at your friends. No changes of haircut upon break-up? I’m pretty sure they’re quite plentiful.

A strong need to manifest independence is troubling in a relationship, especially in marriage. Being independent is one thing. Asserting or expressing independence is another.

Of what? It’s a friendship. Did you expect a wife to have no friends? Do you have friends?

Have you noticed the part about, “losing herself?” Sometimes people are not consciously attracted to a person, but they somewhat lose themselves in a fascination which does have certain overtones of desire. As you wouldn’t like your man to spend tons of time with an attractive friend, or go on about what a great person she is - especially if it involves some kinds of appreciation you didn’t receive from him - a man wouldn’t like his woman to allow herself to be enchanted by another man to the point she would lose track of things.

Spending the night has so many shades of meaning, it depends on many things. In a subculture where getting home is tricky, most people have a lot of friends who are expected to help one another out, the sense of a home as a fortress is all but unknown and few people drive or at least few ever have any gas, staying the night in some convenient place is very common and means nothing at all. In a subculture of affluence and isolated households, it would be very weird, sure. It depends on who the people in question are.

Yes. It depends on that and many other factors. In a typical situation, say, a typical housing area with typical levels of danger on the streets, it not being a very late hour to go home, spending the night in the house of someone of the opposite gender is not totally normal. The problem is not with some supposedly magical effect of spending a night under someone’s roof, but with the acceptance of certain complications which come with it. This includes many things. Generally, the concern is whether people respect their station, that is, whether people who are in a relationship behave like people who are in a relationship - and especially if married people behave like married people.

 

[strngrnrth]

Perhaps, perhaps not. Depends. In one situation, it will be a very good aesthetic or health-related or functional reason. In the other, it will be a whim or a desire to manifest independence.

I don’t see anything wrong with that. I think if both parties are being reasonably fit and groomed and not indulging nauseating personal habits, their appearance is their own business. If I had a husband and he decided to get a clipper-cut, which I find ugly, it would be none of my beeswax unless he kept it dirty or did it so badly people made untrue assumptions about us, say, if he had it so close in spots it made abrasions and then pieces stuck out. Otherwise it would be up to him.

Don’t tell me you’ve never seen a woman do that. It’s practically a cliche. Ask around, look at your friends. No changes of haircut upon break-up? I’m pretty sure they’re quite plentiful.

My crowd usually don’t bother, though we do change our style with seasons and new employment sometimes. But even if she does get a haircut that looks like a breakup cut or whatever it would be called, if she’s still there, she didn’t break up.

A strong need to manifest independence is troubling in a relationship, especially in marriage. Being independent is one thing. Asserting or expressing independence is another.

Being independent is inseparable from expressing independence.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Oh, wow, Chevalier. Don’t EVER get married if you think you are going to come between a woman and her hair.

That is one of the most personal things a woman does. Don’t interfere. Because quite frankly, telling a woman how to do her hair is in itself EXTREMELY CONTROLLING.

Here’s some pointers for you. Pay attention. You may need to know this in life…

1. The hairdo a woman looks good in when she is 23 is not the hairdo she will look good in when she is 33 or 43 or 53. It will be outdated and not match her age. Think beehive hairdos from the 60s or Farrah Fawcett hairdos on 50 year old women. Scary, huh? As her hair ages it will change color and texture. She will not appreciate you making her wear it like she did when you first met.
2. When women change their hairdo it really has nothing to do with you. It has everything to do with their self image and the image they want to project to the world. Quite frankly, many women do not keep long hair in the business place because it makes them look less competent in a subliminal way, more girlish.
3. Sometimes women want a change because they are in a rut, so they take it out on their hair. It’s best you not get between them and the scissors. Goes double for hair color.
4. Weight loss, illness, weight gain, pregnancy and motherhood will affect a woman’s hair tremendously. It will grow faster, fall out, thin out, or whatever. I know very few mothers of newborns who don’t go get a haircut to feel pretty when they are tired and baby is puking on the hair and they want a change from feeling fat and unattractive. Don’t ever say to a post-partum woman “What did you do to your hair? How could you?” Seriously, dude. Don’t do it.
5. That breakup thing… ummm… sometimes women wear their hair in a certain way because a controlling man makes them do it and they are trying to please him. When the relationship ends, the woman isn’t going to do her hair for him any longer. She does what she has postponed for a long time and gets a new style. You are acting like the defect is in her for exerting some kind of independence when in reality, she was probably catering too long to someone who told her “Don’t ever cut your hair.”

Sometimes they just need to look in the mirror and feel pretty. If changing their hair does it, just smile and say “You look nice, dear.”

A woman’s relationship with her hair is very different than a man’s. Just a word to the wise.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

There’s one other thing he does that someone thought was controlling. Since the trains close early and I live far away from most of my friends, I sometimes spend the night at people’s houses. He said it made him uncomfortable if I spent the night at a man’s house, so we agreed on a list of friends’ houses where he feels comfortable having me spend the night. I think that’s a safety / protection issue, not a control issue. If I thought he was in danger at certain friends’ houses, I’d do the same thing.

I wouldn’t worry about this. Some guys see in their cohorts a side of men that we women might miss. He sounds like it’s the guy he doesn’t trust, not you. He sounds like he wants you to be safe but not in a situation where you could find out someone wasn’t what you thought they were. So he compromised on a list of safe houses. A real control freak would have made you be at your house every night no matter the risk to you. No exceptions.

The issue about control versus reasonable request is that everyone has one or two issues that are really important. Controllers find a way to tell you what to do in everything. Dinner is too hot. No, you made it too cold. The kids are too loud, make them quiet. Why are you standing there letting the baby make noise (when he is standing there too and can take care of it). Do you have to wear that dress? Don’t wear that lotion, it smells like my mother. Turn that tv off. I don’t want to listen to that ****. Where did you go today? There’s 23 miles on the car that wasn’t there this morning.

Everything is an opportunity for comment and criticism and breaking down your self image and self respect. You know you are being controlled when you go to make a decision or buy something and your first thought is “How am I going to explain this to so and so?” Or “I’ll handle him later.” Or “Will this make him fly off the handle?” You shouldn’t have to “handle” anyone else’s reaction in life.

When you realize everything is predicated on how it’s going to make someone else feel, you begin to lose touch with how anything makes YOU feel. Not healthy. That is a sign they have your emotions under their control.

One or two issues or preferences isn’t a problem. It’s a matter of degrees. And like Guitar said, it’s a matter of how would it look if someone said it to a stranger. If your boyfriend passes those tests, it’s safe to proceed ahead.

 

[Just_wondering]

1. Sometimes women want a change because they are in a rut, so they take it out on their hair. It’s best you not get between them and the scissors. Goes double for hair color.

A woman’s relationship with her hair is very different than a man’s. Just a word to the wise.

This made me laugh! Chevalier, Liberanosamalo is right! I did this just this year, before my brother’s wedding. I was in a total rut, I felt depressed and fat and ugly (like I usually do in winter) and most of all I wanted to change my hairstyle.

“Oh, please don’t cut your hair,” my boyfriend cried. “It looks so beautiful long. And don’t dye it either. Your natural colour is so lovely.”

The compliments were nice, but I was dead-set on doing SOMETHING with my hair to cheer myself up and make myself look better. I ended up cutting only about two inches off, changing the style, and getting a few subtle highlights in it. My hair still looked like my hair, but softer.

When my boyfriend saw it, he was like and then and he told me that he was glad we were in company because seeing hair like that is a near occasion of sin.

Telling a woman she can’t change her hair is like… um… telling a man which sports teams he’s allowed to cheer for. (Kind of. Well, it’s the best I can come up with right now.) It’s only going to make them frustrated and angry.

 

[Just_wondering]

I wouldn’t worry about this. Some guys see in their cohorts a side of men that we women might miss. He sounds like it’s the guy he doesn’t trust, not you. He sounds like he wants you to be safe but not in a situation where you could find out someone wasn’t what you thought they were. So he compromised on a list of safe houses. A real control freak would have made you be at your house every night no matter the risk to you. No exceptions.

The issue about control versus reasonable request is that everyone has one or two issues that are really important. Controllers find a way to tell you what to do in everything. Dinner is too hot. No, you made it too cold. The kids are too loud, make them quiet. Why are you standing there letting the baby make noise (when he is standing there too and can take care of it). Do you have to wear that dress? Don’t wear that lotion, it smells like my mother. Turn that tv off. I don’t want to listen to that ****. Where did you go today? There’s 23 miles on the car that wasn’t there this morning.

Everything is an opportunity for comment and criticism and breaking down your self image and self respect. You know you are being controlled when you go to make a decision or buy something and your first thought is “How am I going to explain this to so and so?” Or “I’ll handle him later.” Or “Will this make him fly off the handle?” You shouldn’t have to “handle” anyone else’s reaction in life.

When you realize everything is predicated on how it’s going to make someone else feel, you begin to lose touch with how anything makes YOU feel. Not healthy. That is a sign they have your emotions under their control.

One or two issues or preferences isn’t a problem. It’s a matter of degrees. And like Guitar said, it’s a matter of how would it look if someone said it to a stranger. If your boyfriend passes those tests, it’s safe to proceed ahead.

Okay, thank you, Liberanosamalo. That’s a really clear answer. I’m glad to be able to reassure myself. Our relationship is nothing like that.

I was pretty certain that his behaviour was reasonable and not controlling, but I’m an agreeable sort of person, and so the warning from my friend made me decide to take another look at it. I still feel that my boyfriend is being protective in a loving way, not a controlling way. Thanks.

 

[chevalier]

I don’t see anything wrong with that. I think if both parties are being reasonably fit and groomed and not indulging nauseating personal habits, their appearance is their own business.

On the one hand, I would agree with you in some kind of a legalistic sense - after all, what about rights, liberties and whatnot. On the other hand we do need to consider the other person. Drastic unilateral changes which affect the relationship shouldn’t be made or at least shouldn’t be made lightly. Relationships between people are not like business relationships - one can’t just quit and find a new person with whom to conduct business.

If I had a husband and he decided to get a clipper-cut, which I find ugly, it would be none of my beeswax unless he kept it dirty or did it so badly people made untrue assumptions about us, say, if he had it so close in spots it made abrasions and then pieces stuck out. Otherwise it would be up to him.

It’s not really the cut which is the problem as much as the statement making. So long as the haircut were clean and not gender-defying, I probably wouldn’t feel wrong about it on its own. Now, if it expressed some strange statement, then I would definitely worry.

I also disagree with your idea that it’s not your business if your husband decides have a haircut you find ugly. It would be childish to make such demonstrations.

My crowd usually don’t bother, though we do change our style with seasons

Sure.

and new employment sometimes

See?

But even if she does get a haircut that looks like a breakup cut or whatever it would be called, if she’s still there, she didn’t break up.

Statements are not empty and they are not neutral, either. If someone expresses something, be it even false, it happens for a reason and typically has a purpose.

Being independent is inseparable from expressing independence.

Not at all.

Making an ordinary use of something is by definition not the same as making a demonstrative use of it. Being independent means making your decisions on your own - doing the right thing, choosing what’s best etc. Demonstrating independence is choosing something because someone else doesn’t like it and in order to manifest your independence. Such behaviour is sometimes necessary (e.g. if we turn down an otherwise reasonable request because of the bad way in which it was framed - say commanding or extortive), but in a normal situation it’s a trademark of immaturity and childish behaviour.

A need to demonstrate independence showing itself in turning down requests just to demonstrate the ability to do so, going against the spouse’s preferences just to show he isn’t the boss, such a need would be the sign of personality issues.

 

[Phemie]

On the one hand, I would agree with you in some kind of a legalistic sense - after all, what about rights, liberties and whatnot. On the other hand we do need to consider the other person. Drastic unilateral changes which affect the relationship shouldn’t be made or at least shouldn’t be made lightly. Relationships between people are not like business relationships - one can’t just quit and find a new person with whom to conduct business.

Good grief, are we still talking about getting a haircut?? Getting a haircut is all about what I see in the mirror, it’s about me, nobody else. I’ve never taken DH into consideration when going to the hair dresser. 35 years and it never occurred to me that my hair had anything to do with him.

Right now I’m thinking of having my head shaved for cancer research with the idea that if it looks good I’m keeping it that way (I always envied Sinead O’Connor).

While I love DH’s beard, if he decides to shave I won’t take it personally.

 

[chevalier]

Oh, wow, Chevalier. Don’t EVER get married if you think you are going to come between a woman and her hair.

Trust me, I’m able to handle that. I’d much rather be surprised than have things consistently my way, anyway.

That is one of the most personal things a woman does. Don’t interfere. Because quite frankly, telling a woman how to do her hair is in itself EXTREMELY CONTROLLING.

See? That’s the point. Very, very personal. No entry zone for a man. Same as “me time”, “girls’ night” etc. That’s fair to some extent, but I tend to think women of this current day and age overdo it.

I would say telling any person how to manage his or her hair would be controlling. Equally controlling, be it a woman’s hair or a man’s.

1. The hairdo a woman looks good in when she is 23 is not the hairdo she will look good in when she is 33 or 43 or 53.

That goes without saying, really.

It will be outdated and not match her age. Think beehive hairdos from the 60s or Farrah Fawcett hairdos on 50 year old women. Scary, huh? As her hair ages it will change color and texture. She will not appreciate you making her wear it like she did when you first met.

Sure.

1. When women change their hairdo it really has nothing to do with you.

You contradict that in point #5, Liberanos.

It has everything to do with their self image and the image they want to project to the world. Quite frankly, many women do not keep long hair in the business place because it makes them look less competent in a subliminal way, more girlish.

I know a number of litigators with long hair and quite feminine clothing tastes and they’re far from incompetent. Perhaps a masculine look actually builds some perception of competence but that’s because being male is generally (wrongly) associated with competence. But this doesn’t mean all the ladies should go to the army barber, does it?

1. Sometimes women want a change because they are in a rut, so they take it out on their hair. It’s best you not get between them and the scissors. Goes double for hair color.

Sure. So long as it doesn’t get antisocial. Once it starts getting anti-social, there’s a problem. Most women have it under control. Most women at some stages in their lives don’t have it under control and that’s fine as well. What’s not fine is a pattern of antisocial behaviours and I think the modern hysterical fashion is pushing in that direction.

1. Weight loss, illness, weight gain, pregnancy and motherhood will affect a woman’s hair tremendously. It will grow faster, fall out, thin out, or whatever. I know very few mothers of newborns who don’t go get a haircut to feel pretty when they are tired and baby is puking on the hair and they want a change from feeling fat and unattractive. Don’t ever say to a post-partum woman “What did you do to your hair? How could you?” Seriously, dude. Don’t do it.

Did I even say I actually liked long hair? I believe I only said I sympathised with a guy who was confronted with a sudden change he could do nothing about in something which mattered to him a lot.

1. That breakup thing… ummm… sometimes women wear their hair in a certain way because a controlling man makes them do it and they are trying to please him. When the relationship ends, the woman isn’t going to do her hair for him any longer. She does what she has postponed for a long time and gets a new style. You are acting like the defect is in her for exerting some kind of independence when in reality, she was probably catering too long to someone who told her “Don’t ever cut your hair.”

That or an instant relief thing. That’s part of the reason I’d worry about such events in a marriage which were on the rocks, with distance between spouses growing. Then it’d be a bit like a manifestation of liberty… liberty which isn’t really there. That’s the vibe I get from the example we’re discussing (to death).

Sometimes they just need to look in the mirror and feel pretty. If changing their hair does it, just smile and say “You look nice, dear.”

Or, “you don’t need to be pretty to be cool.”

A woman’s relationship with her hair is very different than a man’s. Just a word to the wise.

Hey, we haven’t even started on how WRONG AND EXTREMELY CONTROLLING it would be to tell ME how to do MY hair!

 

[chevalier]

This made me laugh! Chevalier, Liberanosamalo is right! I did this just this year, before my brother’s wedding. I was in a total rut, I felt depressed and fat and ugly (like I usually do in winter) and most of all I wanted to change my hairstyle.

Of course she’s right. It only proves my point that changing haircut is often a statement. Statements have the potential to be anti-social and anti-social attitudes have the potential to be scary. Trimming the hair is one thing. A young woman trying to look like a man is a completely different one.

When my boyfriend saw it, he was like and then

Sure. But from the example we’re discussing (to death ) I get the vibe the woman just doesn’t care what she looks like to her husband, he’s ceasing to be a factor in her life and he’s generally stepping slowly into oblivion as far as she goes. That’s the problem, not the kind of hair she likes. It’d be the same if she let it grow while he loved it short.

Telling a woman she can’t change her hair is like… um… telling a man which sports teams he’s allowed to cheer for. (Kind of. Well, it’s the best I can come up with right now.) It’s only going to make them frustrated and angry.

Yes, it is. On the other hand, if we’re in a relationship with someone, 180 degree changes, even in personal matters, need to be made with consideration for the other party’s feelings. Think if your boyfriend suddenly decided to grow (or cut) a voluminous beard and mustache, knowing you like it the other way and without asking you. This considering women are less visual and male facial hair is far less of an attraction factor than a woman’s hair.

Oh, and stop assuming I like long hair. It isn’t as simple. I’m just nitpicking on the somewhat high tolerance for “me first” attitudes I see here.

 

[whatevergirl]

My husband used to be very upset over my changing hairstyles…after 17 years, he has learned to go with the flow. He said, as long as you don’t opt for the GI Jane look (if you’ve ever seen that movie lol) then it’s alright by me.

(But, he also told me I’d look good bald, too) aw.

Ok–back on topic!

 

[chevalier]

Good grief, are we still talking about getting a haircut?? Getting a haircut is all about what I see in the mirror, it’s about me, nobody else. I’ve never taken DH into consideration when going to the hair dresser. 35 years and it never occurred to me that my hair had anything to do with him.

It certainly does and it also does when a man is picking his own cut. Caring if we look pretty to the husband or wife is nothing to be ashamed of. In fact, it’s quite a positive thing and I’d think it were a bit of a matter of course.

To put the discussion back on topic, however, I believe hair is a good example of how thin the lines can be (no pun intended ).

There are many things in people’s relationships that simply cannot be dictated. There are many things which are personal for the one, but they also affect the other. It’s fair to apply some even standards. However, it’s even better to show some actual compassion, empathy, understanding.

A woman telling her husband how to wear his moustache is controlling. A woman causing her husband to wear his moustache in a particular way is not only controlling but also manipulative. A woman insisting that he wear his moustache in a particular way is controlling - although it’s just that she wants things her way, but she isn’t aggressive.

Now, a man wearing his moustache in a particular way because his wife told him to is controlled. A man wearing his moustache in some way because he knows his wife likes it is not controlled. It does not make him in any way less of a strong, manly man - in fact, I’d say it proves the opposite. A man refusing to cut or grow moustache despite his wife nagging is independent. A man growing or cutting his moustache regardless of whether his wife likes it or not, could and should be more considerate. A man growing or cutting it because the wife likes the opposite and he has to prove he doesn’t have to cater to her, that man needs therapy.

This is just an example. We could construe a similar one in nearly every area of life. It gets even more complicated when decisions are made jointly. Choosing a school for children, agreeing on a budget, choosing compatible careers, a place to live, those things are not as easy as going to the hairdresser’s.

 

[Phemie]

It certainly does and it also does when a man is picking his own cut. Caring if we look pretty to the husband or wife is nothing to be ashamed of. In fact, it’s quite a positive thing and I’d think it were a bit of a matter of course.

I don’t know about the women who post here but I’m not ashamed to admit that I’m much more concerned with how other women will view my hair and my clothes than I am by how my husband will view them. I could wear a pototo sack and DH would be happy.

 

[chevalier]

I don’t know about the women who post here but I’m not ashamed to admit that I’m much more concerned with how other women will view my hair and my clothes than I am by how my husband will view them. I could wear a pototo sack and DH would be happy.

I wouldn’t feel comfortable discussing something as private as that, if you don’t mind. I’d much rather talk about a general situation. So, in general, I think as far as attractiveness goes, it’s a bit pointless (respectfully) to appear attractive to one’s own gender, while it makes sense to be attractive to potential targets and especially to someone with whom we have a relationship.

 

[Just_wondering]

I wouldn’t feel comfortable discussing something as private as that, if you don’t mind. I’d much rather talk about a general situation. So, in general, I think as far as attractiveness goes, it’s a bit pointless (respectfully) to appear attractive to one’s own gender, while it makes sense to be attractive to potential targets and especially to someone with whom we have a relationship.

I’d rather attract my potential targets with my amazing wit and charm.

The truth is that my fdh already knows me, and is already attracted to me because of my personality as well as my looks. I want to impress people that meet me in a professional context as well, and what works for a husband (beautiful dress, long hair, smoky eyes, whatever) is not the image I want to give a coworker or client. My future husband’s opinion matters to me, but he’s not the only person I interact with, and my appearance shouldn’t matter to him as much as my soul does.

I do grant you that a woman who shaves her head for no apparent reason, knowing that it would bother her husband, is probably making an antisocial statement. On the other hand, a woman who wants to change her style for a reason (work, self-esteem, charity, ease of care) should give brief consideration to her husband’s preferences, and then go ahead and do what she thinks is right.

For me, I had my head shaved in college, and I LOVED it. However, I wouldn’t do that now because I know my boyfriend loves long hair, and also because I would get a lot of flak at work about it. I could see shaving it off when I reach fifty or so, when short hair is a little more culturally acceptable.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Chevalier, your little monologue about mustaches was amusing and very insightful.

But as far as doing one’s hair to look attractive to a husband versus pleasing herself… know that if a woman feels she looks attractive to herself, she will positively shine for her husband.

 

[chevalier]

I’d rather attract my potential targets with my amazing wit and charm.

So would I, but in the absence thereof…

My future husband’s opinion matters to me, but he’s not the only person I interact with, and my appearance shouldn’t matter to him as much as my soul does.

Perfectly right. My point is that it’s not very fair when one of the spouses chooses to stop trying to be attractive to the other, without real consent from the other party.

I do grant you that a woman who shaves her head for no apparent reason, knowing that it would bother her husband, is probably making an antisocial statement. On the other hand, a woman who wants to change her style for a reason (work, self-esteem, charity, ease of care) should give brief consideration to her husband’s preferences, and then go ahead and do what she thinks is right.

I don’t really know what she should do, in what proportion and it in what order, but I’ll insist that it’s not right if she concludes it doesn’t really matter much whether she’s attractive to him any more or what his feelings are. Generally, once we’re married, we are not alone to make our decisions. The part about no longer being the masters of our respective bodies I wouldn’t extend to include that we can’t even pick a haircut, but I would say that it definitely is not right to decide unilaterally that we no longer care to appeal to the spouse or that his or her feelings don’t matter. Be we a man or a woman.

Chevalier, your little monologue about mustaches was amusing and very insightful.

Doing my best. :tiphat:

But as far as doing one’s hair to look attractive to a husband versus pleasing herself… know that if a woman feels she looks attractive to herself, she will positively shine for her husband.

As a rule probably yes and a lot of attractiveness is caused by confidence, for sure. This is true probably even more in the case of men than in the case of women - excepting situations in which shyness is attractive (to make life complicated).

Once again, however, life is not a beauty pageant, but rather my point is that unilateralism is not exactly right. This is why I took on the defence of that manipulative guy who was nagging his wife into letting her hair grow back. The hair was a convenient example, but the real problem is that real life isn’t like the law where the reasonable stops here, the oppressive starts there and we can stick to our rights. Other examples could be deciding to start smoking, deciding to take on a time-consuming hobby - things which primarily affect the person doing them, which are entirely in the power of that person to decide, but which have a lot of impact in the life of the other person.