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Phemie
Guest
I thought that’s what I had written but as I reread my post I see that I wrote “parish where the marriage took place” instead of “parish that prepared them.”
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Brianmcg321
Guest
OP here,
So we met with my Priest today. He called the priest that attended and a dispensation had not been completed.
He stated that he was not acting on authority of the Church. Which is what I was expecting since I had never actually asked.
So we are having a convalidation ceremony next Monday.
So we met with my Priest today. He called the priest that attended and a dispensation had not been completed.
He stated that he was not acting on authority of the Church. Which is what I was expecting since I had never actually asked.
So we are having a convalidation ceremony next Monday.
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Irishmom2
Guest
Good for you! May God bless you and your wife!
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Gorgias
Guest
So we are having a convalidation ceremony next Monday.
So… your wife is Catholic, then? Otherwise, that’s awful quick turnaround time for the tribunal!
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Phemie
Guest
Tribunal wasn’t involved. This was a simple case of a Catholic (OP) marrying outside the Church without a dispensation. Convalidation is rectifying the situation.
I’ve known friends in that situation who approached their Pastor after Sunday Mass and said “Can we have a convalidation?”
He said, “Of course, when?”
“Is there anything wrong with right now?”
“Oh… OK. I’ve got time.”
Dad and sister of the bride were rounded up to be witnesses, the consent was exchanged and marriage validated within 15 minutes of the request. Granted the Pastor knew them well and was familiar with their situation.
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Usige
Guest
Congratulations and glad you were able to come to a resolution.
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1ke
Guest
There is no tribunal involvement here. Perhaps you have this OP confused with someone else?
The OP is Catholic. The wife is not.
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Gorgias
Guest
Maybe I’m in desperate need of my first cup of coffee this morning, but…
the ‘convalidation’ is the actual Catholic marriage ceremony; if his wife is a non-Catholic Christian, then they need the permission for a mixed marriage – from the tribunal – that all Catholics need when they marry a baptized non-Catholic.
Am I confused?
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Gorgias
Guest
If they were both Catholic, sure (although the question of why there wouldn’t be a marital interview & paperwork certainly comes to my mind)…
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FrDavid96
Guest
Maybe I’m in desperate need of my first cup of coffee this morning, but…
the ‘convalidation’ is the actual Catholic marriage ceremony; if his wife is a non-Catholic Christian, then they need the permission for a mixed marriage – from the tribunal – that all Catholics need when they marry a baptized non-Catholic.
Am I confused?
The permission does not come from the Tribunal. It comes from the bishop, although it’s entirely possible that in some diocese, the paperwork might (just might) be mailed to the office of the Tribunal. That’s just a matter of addressing the envelope. The Tribunal as such is not involved.
The bishop himself rarely deals directly in giving permission for a convalidation (and, for that matter mixed marriage). That is usually delegated to someone else. The bishop may delegate that to the individual pastors.
Anyway, the bottom line is that you’re right: the bishop’s permission is needed. However, he can delegate that.
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Gorgias
Guest
In my diocese, it’s delegated to the tribunal.
Anyway, right – that’s what I meant. (Although, I have to admit, I had forgotten that it’s possible that, in some dioceses, the ability to grant permission for MM may be delegated to the pastor. Perhaps that’s what’s going on here.)
Time for that cup of coffee, I think…
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1ke
Guest
Permission for mixed marriage does not involve the tribunal at all.Maybe I’m in desperate need of my first cup of coffee this morning, but…
the ‘convalidation’ is the actual Catholic marriage ceremony; if his wife is a non-Catholic Christian, then they need the permission for a mixed marriage – from the tribunal – that all Catholics need when they marry a baptized non-Catholic.
Am I confused?
Permission for mixed marriage comes from the bishop or his delegate at the chancery office, such as the judicial vicar, vicar of clergy, etc. Even the pastor.
The priest can easily obtain such a permission in a few days or a week. No problem. (excepting some unusual circumstance where everyone was out of pocket for some reason… even then it shouldn’t be too difficult).
Edited to add: nevermind, I see Fr David added to the conversation.
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Gorgias
Guest
LOL… let me try again.
Yes, I was talking about the “Office for Matrimonial Concerns” (which – maybe just in my diocese, since ya’ll are jumping on me here? – is colloquially called ‘the tribunal’, since the civil and canon law offices include both of these?). I’ll be certain to speak more formally around ya’ll in the future…
Perhaps. What surprised me, though, was that the priest committed to “next Monday” – even though he hadn’t yet sent the documents in! (Maybe there are particular circumstances – he works in the Office for Matrimonial Concerns, or has a friend there, or was already planning to visit there this week.) To commit to it, though, before sending in the documents or even collecting baptismal info from the OP & his wife… wow. That’s what was surprising to me!
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FrDavid96
Guest
Really, no one is trying to jump on you. They are 2 different and distinct offices.LOL… let me try again.
Yes, I was talking about the “Office for Matrimonial Concerns” (which – maybe just in my diocese, since ya’ll are jumping on me here? – is colloquially called ‘the tribunal’, since the civil and canon law offices include both of these?). I’ll be certain to speak more formally around ya’ll in the future…
The Office of Matrimonial Concerns (usually) deals with marriages before they happen (permissions, dispensations, etc), while the Tribunal deals with petitions for nullity.
The Tribunal is a court. The court is (usually) only convened when someone petitions for a declaration of nullity.
The Tribunal does not act on requests for convalidation or mixed marriages.
Again, simply for convenience sake, the offices might share the same mailing address, but the work they do is entirely different.
Yes, it surprises me as well. Certain work does need to be done. We can only trust/hope that he did indeed do it before celebrating the convalidation.
The bishop might delegate the authority to for a convalidation to the pastor, but the pastor still needs to do a proper investigation and have all the necessary paperwork.
I suppose it could happen if both parties were baptised at that parish. In that case, he would not need to contact a different parish to see the baptismal/sacramental records. If they’re already in his own office, it would take but a few moments to see them for himself.
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1ke
Guest
Agreed.
The OP’s wife is Episcopalian. Episcopalian churches keep good records, so it should be quite easy to obtain her baptismal records. The parish may already have them for some other reason, such as baptismal prep class for a child or something (who knows).
Yes, it is certainly important that the priest convalidating does get the proper permission and paperwork completed. (As an aside, however, in the worst case scenario that he did not, thankfully permission for mixed marriage goes to licety and not validity).
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Phemie
Guest
In my diocese the granting permission for a mixed-marriage has been delegated to the priests preparing the couple, Pastors usually since we don’t have very many parishes with more than one priest.
In my friends’ case, it was a disparity of cult marriage but the dispensation had been on file for more than a year – and our Pastor was the Vicar General who had granted it.
In my friends’ case, it was a disparity of cult marriage but the dispensation had been on file for more than a year – and our Pastor was the Vicar General who had granted it.
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Gorgias
Guest
Yep. It’s just a colloquialism around here. Not at all accurate, but when we say “the tribunal”, it’s understood around here that we’re talking about any of the departments that share offices with them. Good reminder for me to be a bit more precise when posting.
Fair enough. That’s a bit different than your earlier post, which seemed to be saying that there was no administrivia that needed to be done. I’m guessing you were just being as casual with your description as I was with mine. It’s all good…!
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Vico
Guest
That is according to CIC Canon 1160, since Canon 1108 was not observed.Can. 1108 §1. Only those marriages are valid which are contracted before the local ordinary, pastor, or a priest or deacon delegated by either of them, who assist, and before two witnesses according to the rules expressed in the following canons and without prejudice to the exceptions mentioned in cann. ⇒ 144, ⇒ 1112, §1, ⇒ 1116, and ⇒ 1127, §§1-2.OP here,
So we met with my Priest today. He called the priest that attended and a dispensation had not been completed.
He stated that he was not acting on authority of the Church. Which is what I was expecting since I had never actually asked.
So we are having a convalidation ceremony next Monday.
§2. The person who assists at a marriage is understood to be only that person who is present, asks for the manifestation of the consent of the contracting parties, and receives it in the name of the Church.
Can. 1127 §1. The prescripts of ⇒ can. 1108 are to be observed for the form to be used in a mixed marriage. Nevertheless, if a Catholic party contracts marriage with a non-Catholic party of an Eastern rite, the canonical form of the celebration must be observed for liceity only; for validity, however, the presence of a sacred minister is required and the other requirements of law are to be observed.
Can. 1127 §2. If grave difficulties hinder the observance of canonical form, the local ordinary of the Catholic party has the right of dispensing from the form in individual cases, after having consulted the ordinary of the place in which the marriage is celebrated and with some public form of celebration for validity. It is for the conference of bishops to establish norms by which the aforementioned dispensation is to be granted in a uniform manner.
Can. 1160 A marriage which is null because of defect of form must be contracted anew in canonical form in order to become valid, without prejudice to the prescript of can. 1127, §2.
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