Conversion and baptism at SSPX

[anjoh66]

Hi!
Now i am back with some thoughts about conversion and baptism.

It is about the swedish Lutheran priest who converted at SSPX in Paris, first i would like to give a brief conclusion about the story and then the questions.

Here is what Bishop Anders Arborelius had to say about this story:

As a Convert (I was recieved into the Church in 1979 by Monsignore Bernhard Maria Koch) I have myself recieved many Converts into the Church, and every year in my Diocese several Lutheran ecclesiastics, both male and female, become Catholic.
I had entrusted a very faithful and pious priest, the Rev. Dr. Ingvar Fogelqvist, with the task of giving Pastor Sten Sandmark instructions in Catholic doctrine in order to prepare him for his reception into the Church. It is important to prepare the Lutheran ecclesiastics well, or else the danger of their return to Lutheranism exists, something which unfortunately also happens.
After some time, Rev. Fogelqvist has told me, that Sten Sandmark could or would no longer participate in the instructions. He did not inform Rev. Fogelqvist about his absence. Later we got the message that he wanted to convert at the SSPX in Paris, which he then did.

I guess Sten Sandmark didnt have the patience to wait, here in sweden to become a catholic is a process of 2-3 years, it takes very long time, too long in my opinion, but thats my opinion and another story.

Question:

Since Sten Sandmark cut his catechumenate in the official catholic church which is in communion with Rome, is he, in the eyes of the church considered as a Catholic or Lutheran?

And what if an unbaptized person should do the same, i.e. start catechesis and cut and convert at SSPX instead and be baptized by them, will he be considered a Catholic or not?

I know the baptism will be valid, but will he be considered as he is in communion with Rome? Can he communicate in an official catholic church?

 

[LilyM]

Hi!
Now i am back with some thoughts about conversion and baptism.

It is about the swedish Lutheran priest who converted at SSPX in Paris, first i would like to give a brief conclusion about the story and then the questions.

Here is what Bishop Anders Arborelius had to say about this story:

I guess Sten Sandmark didnt have the patience to wait, here in sweden to become a catholic is a process of 2-3 years, it takes very long time, too long in my opinion, but thats my opinion and another story.

Question:

Since Sten Sandmark cut his catechumenate in the official catholic church which is in communion with Rome, is he, in the eyes of the church considered as a Catholic or Lutheran?

And what if an unbaptized person should do the same, i.e. start catechesis and cut and convert at SSPX instead and be baptized by them, will he be considered a Catholic or not?

I know the baptism will be valid, but will he be considered as he is in communion with Rome? Can he communicate in an official catholic church?

If he was baptised Lutheran (presumably he was if he was a Lutheran pastor) then he shouldn’t have needed to be baptised again to be Catholic

In which case he would’ve gone through the instruction anyway, but then maybe received Communion and Confirmation with the SSPX to be initiated.

Regardless, if the SSPX baptism is valid (which they are) then he’s a Catholic and can indeed (provided he doesn’t actually suppor the schismatic aspects of the SSPX) communicate in a church in full communion with Rome.

If he was initiated via the other sacraments, then the communion would be valid, but the status of the confirmation (if I remember rightly) might be in doubt, as all the SSPX bishops were suspended until recently. But having received Communion in a valid Catholic ceremony, he would probably be Catholic.

 

[anjoh66]

Yes i didnt clarify, yes i assume he was baptised lutheran and recieved confirmation at SSPX.

The other question was if an unbaptized person, feels the process is too slow here in sweden and therefore choose to go abroad, maybe to SSPX or ant other parish where it is done quicker, if he will be in full communion with the church.

I am considering it myself, i have been one year now but they say it must take two years more and in my view it is far too long, i wont be baptized until 2011 and thats very frustrating. And nobody will speed it up and my wife is also apart from her communion since we are only civil married and can not convalidate the marriage before my baptism, so that means she must be two more years apart from the communion.

 

[LilyM]

Yes i didnt clarify, yes i assume he was baptised lutheran and recieved confirmation at SSPX.

The other question was if an unbaptized person, feels the process is too slow here in sweden and therefore choose to go abroad, maybe to SSPX or ant other parish where it is done quicker, if he will be in full communion with the church.

I am considering it myself, i have been one year now but they say it must take two years more and in my view it is far too long, i wont be baptized until 2011 and thats very frustrating. And nobody will speed it up and my wife is also apart from her communion since we are only civil married and can not convalidate the marriage before my baptism, so that means she must be two more years apart from the communion.

Well, there’s no reason you can’t go to any country you wish, if it will make things quicker for you. Better not go to SSPX though, you can go to an in-full-communion Catholic parish in France or somewhere else.

I don’t suppose you’ve asked your priest if you can be privately instructed? It does seem a little hurrying-up is warranted here.

 

[anjoh66]

Well, there’s no reason you can’t go to any country you wish, if it will make things quicker for you. Better not go to SSPX though, you can go to an in-full-communion Catholic parish in France or somewhere else.

I don’t suppose you’ve asked your priest if you can be privately instructed? It does seem a little hurrying-up is warranted here.

Well he is instructing me privately but still he is of the opinion that there is no need to hurry the things and it must take time.

He said it is necessary that it takes time and it is a decree from the bishop so he can not speed it up.

Well i dont really know what to do, also that would feel strange to go abroad to do it, it would feel wrong somehow.

He knows very well that she can not communicate during this time but seems like that is not so important, it is no reason for hurrying it, only if i was on the bed of death they will i guess.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Well, there’s no reason you can’t go to any country you wish, if it will make things quicker for you. Better not go to SSPX though, you can go to an in-full-communion Catholic parish in France or somewhere else.

I don’t suppose you’ve asked your priest if you can be privately instructed? It does seem a little hurrying-up is warranted here.

I would think the question would be into what Church was he received and by the representative of what Church. An SSPX priest or bishop is not authorized to represent the Catholic Church by receiving a convert into union with her. Therefore after initiation they would have validly received the Sactaments of Initiation but are not in union with the Catholic Church.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

I would think the question would be into what Church was he received and by the representative of what Church. An SSPX priest or bishop is not authorized to represent the Catholic Church by receiving a convert into union with her. Therefore after initiation they would have validly received the Sactaments of Initiation but are not in union with the Catholic Church.

That’s the current point which I wanted to press - no bishop or priest of the SSPX has any Catholic jurisdiction, which means they do not have the authority to act for the Church. On the face of it, then, they should be no more capable of receiving someone into the Catholic Church than I, a layman, am. It’s not a question of their strained communion with the Church but of their ability to act on Her behalf.