Conversion Questions

[Daz]

Hello,

I would really appreciate your thoughts on my spiritual journey. I have been a committed Anglican for nearly all my life, and I have spent the last few years exploring a call to ordination. I have grown up in an evangelical church, but in the course of undertaking placements with different churches, reading, studying and praying, I came to a thoroughly catholic understanding of the faith. I have read the Tracts for Our Times, and now worship at a wonderful anglo catholic parish. I have however come to view developments across the Anglican Communion with horror, and am increasingly being faced with the truth that the Church of England is in fact a Protestant sect, and is surrendering any right it had to call itself a part of the one, holy catholic church. I am beginning to find my position untenable, and although I am a member of Forward in Faith, I am wondering if my hope for corporate reunion is at the expense of my own personal relationship with Christ and his Church. This is quite a painful train of thought for me. The Church of England has nurtured me, and I know so many wonderful people within it. I also would be shelving any ideas of ordination, as I am engaged to be married.

I have many concerns as I face this great decision. Firstly, putting theology to the side, I do worry that I will be jumping from the frying pan into the fire! It was not easy to find a wonderful traditionalist parish in the CofE, and from what I hear I may find things just as difficult in the Roman Catholic church. It would break my heart to move from beautiful anglo catholic worship to some ghastly liturgical dancing! I hear there are denim clad clergy toting guitars, and that there is huge resistance to the Extraordinary Form being used regularly. Reading the Tablet is quite traumatic, there seems to be as much bashing of Pope Benedict XI there as in the secular press. So are there bodies that support traditionalist catholics? How likely am I to find a liberal priest in my local parish?

Secondly, as I said I would be shelving my exploration of ordination. This is quite painful for me, and I want to continue to explore ways in which I could dedicate my life to the service of the Church, and I would be interested in any thoughts on this. One way in which I have been thinking about is through the Catholic Education Service. It has been suggested to me that I would be well suited to a career in teaching, either primary school or using my environmental sciences background (I graduate from university in the summer with a BSc Environmental Management, and have worked as a research assistant). This does however bring me back to my original concern, as I have heard that the CES is painfully politically correct.

So there we are, those are my biggest concerns as I stare down this huge decision. Others include my agnostic but tolerant fiancee and my love of my Anglican culture heritage and not least hymnal! I would appreciate any thoughts.

 

[Ocarm]

Hi Daz

I have however come to view developments across the Anglican Communion with horror, and am increasingly being faced with the truth that the Church of England is in fact a Protestant sect, and is surrendering any right it had to call itself a part of the one, holy catholic church.

If you really believe this to be true, then your choices are strictly limited.

This is quite a painful train of thought for me. The Church of England has nurtured me, and I know so many wonderful people within it.

Making a move like this is a very difficult step, of course. But then, no-one ever said it would be easy. I took the same step 18 years ago, but it was the right thing because I felt God’s presence within my decision. Do you?

I also would be shelving any ideas of ordination, as I am engaged to be married.

That’s a very hard thing to face. But it also sounds as though you could have regrets whether you stay or go. Perhaps there isn’t an easy option.

It would break my heart to move from beautiful anglo catholic worship to some ghastly liturgical dancing!

I’ve never seen any liturgical dancing, ghastly or otherwise. But this really shouldn’t be an issue in your decision-making. The Church is bigger than your fears, and contains over a billion living souls. You won’t like everything that everyone does. Does that matter?

I hear there are denim clad clergy toting guitars, and that there is huge resistance to the Extraordinary Form being used regularly.

Even if this is so, would it make your desire to seek out the truth go away?

So are there bodies that support traditionalist catholics?

Lots and lots. But you would be joining the Roman Catholic Church, not the Traditionalist Catholic Church. In other words, you won’t be able to control what you see and hear and what other people do. Joining us will be a journey into uncertainty.

How likely am I to find a liberal priest in my local parish?

It all depends on what you think is liberal. If you choose to allow it, other people will always fail to live up to your standards, and for that matter, God’s standards. We haven’t finished building the Kingdom yet.

Secondly, as I said I would be shelving my exploration of ordination. This is quite painful for me, and I want to continue to explore ways in which I could dedicate my life to the service of the Church, and I would be interested in any thoughts on this.

There are no end to the ways in which we can serve God and His Church. Priesthood is only one of those ways.

One way in which I have been thinking about is through the Catholic Education Service. This does however bring me back to my original concern, as I have heard that the CES is painfully politically correct.

Once again, there are no guarantees that you will find what you want. But if this is what God wants for you, that won’t matter.

Others include my agnostic but tolerant fiancee and my love of my Anglican culture heritage and not least hymnal!

There aren’t any conditions that you can place on this journey. It will be what it will be.

I would appreciate any thoughts.

Now that you’ve read what I’ve written, do you still feel that way?

It may sound like I’m being hard on you, but I’m trying to be honest. Your anxieties are normal enough, but the Church isn’t here to suit our aesthetic likes and dislikes, and it isn’t here to be comfortable or unchallenging (although we might wish it was!).

Understandably, your concerns are about you and where you might fit in. But that isn’t really the point. If you have discerned God’s will correctly, then this will be the right step for you. If you haven’t yet discerned enough, then turn your energy to that instead of finding reasons not to engage with the process, because there will always be plenty of things to discourage you if you allow them to. What’s most important is whether God’s plan for you will be best served by making a change or staying where you are, and only He knows the answer to that, so you’ll have to ask Him. Again and again until the answer becomes apparent.

If I sound like I think I’m an expert on this, I’m not. But I had to engage in this kind of dialogue at least twice in my life, once when I entered the Church and again when I entered religious life. The answer became clearer, but I still had fears to conquer; and in the end, I made the leap of faith on both occasions, because absolute certainty is rarely available to us. It was hard, and I was afraid, but it worked out for the best. God didn’t let me down.

Best wishes in your ongoing journey, and may God’s will be done.

 

[Chellow]

Hello Dez and welcome, I feel for you in your journey. It’s my hope the Church would set up a sui iuris for the Anglo-Catholics. Their is an Anglican branch that is petitioning the Holy See for Communion. Maybe you can get some help from the links below.
My prayers are with you.

pastoralprovision.org
anglicanuseconference.com/
atonementparish.blogspot.com/
acahomeorg0.web701.discountasp.net/tac/tac_index.aspx
themessenger.com.au/

 

[DebChris]

The first thing I would say is that you do not shelve any idea of ordination, unless you are married. So, yes, having a fiancee can be an impediment to priestly ordination.
There have been a number of ordained Episcopal or Anglican priest who were able to keep their ordination upon conversion to the Catholic Church although married. Even if you are married, it is possible to become a Catholic deacon.
As with anybody else considering conversion to Catholicism, I would suggest that you speak to a Catholic priest and begin RCIA to better understand the Catholic faith.
Based on what I have been reading in the secular news, I understand some of the conflicts you may be facing.
While as Catholics, we share specific doctrines, each of us has different ways of expressing our faith. There is reverence in both forms of the liturgy. The Extraordinary Form has a single Epistle reading plus the Gospel. What I like about the NO, besides understanding the language, is that there is an OT reading with every Mass plus the Epistle on Sundays along with the Gospel. The essentials, the Tradition, passed from the Apostles to modern times remains intact.
Diocesan priests answer to their respective bishops.
In my parish, daily Mass begins with the rosary. The Sacrament of Reconciliation is also available daily.
Several years ago, my sister told me about a number of Episcopal churches in which the congregation as a whole became Catholic.

 

[quiet52]

What I’m wondering is why you would want a future with someone who isn’t sure God exists.

 

[Daz]

I like the quote by quote format, so I’ll give that a go.

Hi Daz
If you really believe this to be true, then your choices are strictly limited.

I believe I have reached this point, yes.

I felt God’s presence within my decision. Do you?

I feel that God has worked in my deliberations yes. I feel I have been guided through the divines of my church to a catholic understanding of the faith, but am now finding it impossible to square the circle of Anglo Catholicism.

I’ve never seen any liturgical dancing, ghastly or otherwise. But this really shouldn’t be an issue in your decision-making. The Church is bigger than your fears, and contains over a billion living souls. You won’t like everything that everyone does. Does that matter?

I was trying to avoid giving the impression that aesthetics are overly important to me, they are not. This is a theological and Christological issue for me, if it was all about aesthetics I would stay right where I am or in fact opt for an easy life and through my lot in with Affirming Catholicism :bigyikes: . That said, I have experienced life in a church intent on uprooting its finest traditions and removing all that is beautiful and majestic. I don’t think it is unreasonable to express concern for the liturgical life of the Church I am considering dedicating my self to. I also know what it is like to feel at odds with your own church, hence my concerns about liberal clergy and bishops (the Magic Circle?).

Even if this is so, would it make your desire to seek out the truth go away?

Indeed it would not, but I am exploring Orthodoxy as well, and praying for corporate reunion of English Anglo Catholics, so it is not entirely straightforward.

There are no end to the ways in which we can serve God and His Church. Priesthood is only one of those ways.

Absolutely, but perhaps you could put my mind at rest with some examples!

It may sound like I’m being hard on you, but I’m trying to be honest.

It is entirely appreciated!

 

[DebChris]

Absolutely, but perhaps you could put my mind at rest with some examples!

It is entirely appreciated!

One of the most obvious ways is simply by the lives we live. Many Catholics attend Mass daily and are known as daily communicants.
When the Catholic Church talks about stewardship, that stewardship is not limited to financial contributions to the Church. While some people voluntarily tithe, it is not stressed.
My parents grew beautiful flowers that would grace the altar from time to time. My father was a member of the Apostolic Society of the Sacred Heart. He was an usher at most Sunday Masses.
There are extraordinary ministers who read the scriptural passages or help distribute communion. The gospel reading is reserved for the priest. Extraordinary means “outside ordination.” These are lay ministries.There are a number of lay ministries from sacristan to helping with funerals. There are prison and hospital ministries. Many of these ways that people support the Church and the community at large are hidden. Of course there is the cantor who leads songs and the choir who add their voices.
Moving into the area of religious life, there are monks and nuns or sisters Sisters and brothers are not ordained. Their work ranges from contemplative prayer to the same occupations (teacher, canonical lawyer, nurse, etc) that can be found in the secular world. Deacons are ordained and may be married. They perform many of the same functions as the priest. However, only the priest can consecrate the communion hosts.
This is a synopsis with the bottom line being there are as many ways to serve God and His Church as there are people who believe in God.

 

[Ocarm]

Hello again.

I was trying to avoid giving the impression that aesthetics are overly important to me, they are not. This is a theological and Christological issue for me, if it was all about aesthetics I would stay right where I am or in fact opt for an easy life and through my lot in with Affirming Catholicism.

I understand. But then (by your own admission) the issues of whether the form of the mass will be to your liking, or whether the priests and bishops that you encounter will espouse views of which you approve, or which you feel are in greater continuity with tradition, are actually irrelevant. Because you are either ready to believe that the Holy Spirit guides the Church and allows it to teach only truth, or you are not. If you are, this means accepting that matters of form and discipline, and even issues of doctrine, may not be easy to live with. God doesn’t make the promise to us that following His truth is easy. Pretty much the opposite, in fact.

That said, I have experienced life in a church intent on uprooting its finest traditions and removing all that is beautiful and majestic. I don’t think it is unreasonable to express concern for the liturgical life of the Church I am considering dedicating my self to.

No, its not at all unreasonable. But it is only that, your concern and not God’s . By definition, the Church cannot uproot anything which contains ultimate truth. But it can and has consistently changed matters that do not rise to that level (which is the case for most issues of practice). All catholics, from the ultra- traditionalist to the ultra-liberal, have to accept what is taught and permitted by the church, even as they loyally work towards changing what can be changed should they desire it to be so. If we deny the right of the church to move within its own boundaries, however much we may dislike the end result of this, we are protestant, not Catholic. That’s a harsh but non-negotiable fact.

I also know what it is like to feel at odds with your own church, hence my concerns about liberal clergy and bishops (the Magic Circle?).

We cannot control the church and its representatives. We can express our opinions, but no more. and there is a lot of disagreement within the church about matters of practice, and about emerging doctrine. At its best this is a productive and healthy debate. At its worst it is simply whining, and a denial of the decisions that have been made, as if such a denial will make them go away. A lot of the threads here on CAF get locked into this kind of bickering. And it will be found wherever you go in the church.

Indeed it would not, but I am exploring Orthodoxy as well, and praying for corporate reunion of English Anglo Catholics, so it is not entirely straightforward.

Yes, its very complex. And there are precendents for people who achieved more by remaining where they were and didn’t make the move - Brother Roger of Taize comes to mind. But I still think its about following truth, not looking for what may seem most inviting.

perhaps you could put my mind at rest with some examples!

Well - how about secular institutes, tertiary orders and oblation, working in ministry, education, charitable institutions, diocesan offices, as a liturgist, a catechist, a permanent deacon, or in any profession or role, but dedicating your work to Christ. Again, this is a matter of discernment. God will guide you to the right place if you listen with an open mind and an open heart. and perhaps over a long period of time - answers may not be forthcoming immediately.

It is entirely appreciated!

You’re very welcome. God be with you in your search for truth.

 

[DonLeon]

My Dear Friend Daz:

I can give you one solution to one of your dilemas. If you wish to become Catholic, be ordained a priest, and yet be married…you may join an Eastern, Oriental, or Byzantine Rite Church that is in communion with Rome.

If you want to be in the Latine Rite, be ordained, and yet be married, the best you can be is a Deacon. I would suggest you talking your situation over with the formative section of your local priestly diocesan senate.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem