Converting confusion

[itsjustdave1988]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church,

**“MERIT: **The reward which God promises and gives to those who love him and by his grace perform good works. One cannot “merit” justification or eternal life, which are the free gift of God; the source of any merit we have before God is due to the grace of Christ in us …” (Glossary)

"SALVATION: The forgiveness of sins and restoration of friendship with God, which can be done by God alone …" (ibid)

 

[Ladycat]

“MERIT: The reward which God promises and gives to those who love him and by his grace perform good works. One cannot “merit” justification or eternal life, which are the free gift of God; the source of any merit we have before God is due to the grace of Christ in us …” (Glossary)

“SALVATION: The forgiveness of sins and restoration of friendship with God, which can be done by God alone …” (ibid)

Thank you for posting this!

That is the complete opposite of what I was told by others that the Catholic Church teaches.

I was told that some Catholics may “say” that, but it is not what the Church actually teaches. But there it is! Right from the book of what the Church teaches! Unbelievable…

Oh how can I thank you all enough! I have written that down word for word.

 

[ElizabethJoy]

Hello, Ladycat,

I’m a convert, too.

You can find the entire Baltimore Catechism online, here.

If you click on the sections, you’ll have a link for downloading the sections in Word documents.

People here are very good about answering questions, if you have trouble understanding any of the teachings.

I would second the recommendation for Scott and Kimberly Hahn’s Rome Sweet Home. You can also get their conversion story on CD for a very nominal fee or free at Catholicity Lots of very good stuff, there. And all of John Martignoni’s CD’s are just super - Bible Christian Society

I’ve felt welcome at the parish church that I’ve been attending, but people aren’t effusive about welcome - they aren’t even all that curious, actually! Don’t feel out of place - just go and see what it’s all about.

And don’t worry about not knowing what to do or when to do it. I was totally lost during the first few masses I went to. It seems very complicated at first, but it doesn’t stay that way very long.

The order of the mass and all its prayers are here:
latinliturgy.com/nomass.html

You may enjoy watching the mass as shown on Eternal Word Television if you have EWTN in your area or if you have a high-speed cable connection.

There are libraries of written and audio documents on the site - you might find it interesting to listen to other conversion stories on The Journey Home program.

God bless you!
Elizabeth

 

[carol_marie]

Hello Ladycat,

I’m also a born again Evangelical convert. I was very worried about the whole Catholic-working your way to heaven thing & it’s just not true. I have found very little actual differences between the Evangelical view of salvation & the Catholic view - we both say it’s through God’s Grace - and as proof of salvation Evangelicals want to see some “fruit” while Catholics want to see your “good works.” Really - they are the same thing.

Because suppose someone came to Calvery, accepted Jesus as their Savior but then never came back, never cracked a Bible, continued to be a crummy person - mean to their wife & kids. Had no change whatsoever. Would you say that person was truly saved? Nope. Because where are the fruits? Likewise, if a person is baptized Catholic but never goes to mass, lives a crummy life, sins all day long without any remorse, are they OK with God? Nope. Oh sure, they might say they believe in Jesus - but so did our Calvery friend - big deal… where’s the works?

I was in your shoes one year ago… so confused & wanting to be Catholic so badly one minute and wishing I didn’t the next. I just kept praying, “Lead me Jesus and I will follow…” This is where He led me - to the Catholic Church. And now that I’m finally here - I’ve gotta tell ya… it is soooooooooo wonderful. I am experiencing a closeness to Jesus unlike anything before. There will be no peace for you unless you surrender to His will. Ask HIM to lead you & then follow. You will be blessed beyond your imagination.

Peace be with you,
CM

 

[adventistnomore]

I’m in the process of converting after a year and a half of questioning. I want to encourage you to listen to God’s voice above all others! I’ll be praying for you tonight, and I hope you will embrace the Catholic faith… I, and everyone here, are behind you 100%, and are here for you throughout the difficult jourey across the Tiber!

 

[Roman_Army]

Lady Cat,

You’re already going through what many Catholics go through, so in a sense you’re already Catholic. I recommend you read the Catholic Answers Tracts on your concerns. Just think, How can someone be saved at the end with only faith, but have sinned a grave sin? Is a faithful unrepentant rapist/murderer going to be saved? You need both Faith and Grace to be saved. In other words, you need to be free of Grave sin. Good works makes it easier for us to attain salvation and are needed to be canonized a Saint. Also, as shown in scripture not all prayers are heard or answered the way we want them, so how can you be sure that you were forgiven in just one prayer? Confession gaurantees absolution of sin.

** **

 

[trogiah]

Ladycat:

Let me see if I am understanding this correctly.

You are saying that the Catholic Church teaches that it is through Grace alone that I am saved, but it is by my good works (that are not my own, but rather God Himself working through me/using me) that is for lack of better words proof of my salvation? That my good works are not my way to salvation, but rather evidence of my obedience to God and His will?

And thank you all for your prayers. I really need them.

You said it pretty well but for an even shorter version, consider the simple phrase

“A tree is known by its fruit.” Jesus says this in several ways.

peace to you and your family

-Jim

 

[CARose]

Dearest Lady Cat,

May I start by saying it is WONDERFUL that your heart is open to seeking the desire of God, even if it means hating Mother, Father, Brother and Sister (or something like that, in scripture). I know you don’t actually hate any of these people and yet, from the turmoil it sounds like you’re encountering, I suspect you desire to place Christ above all others in your search for Truth. This is an excellent place to begin. It can also be extremely difficult at times, but Christ never promised us that it would be easy to follow him.

Ladycat:

Let me see if I am understanding this correctly.

You are saying that the Catholic Church teaches that it is through Grace alone that I am saved, but it is by my good works (that are not my own, but rather God Himself working through me/using me) that is for lack of better words proof of my salvation? That my good works are not my way to salvation, but rather evidence of my obedience to God and His will?

And thank you all for your prayers. I really need them.

As for whether or not Catholics teach that our Good works are evidence of our obedience to God - Well, sort of.

Actually, I see our good works as our opportunity to sanctify our souls, to bring ourselves into greater conformity with the will of God. In doing so, we learn to spread his love through-out the world. Often times, this costs us dearly in terms of things that belong to this world. However, it is not this world to which we should be attached, as this world will perish where as the next is eternal. We need to seek that which has true permanence and that is only with GOD.

It is my belief that we help to create heaven on earth, one soul at a time when we do God’s will, as seen in “…Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven…”

I encourage you in your search for Truth, as God is the Truth, the Way and the Light. He is perfection and he is Love, Mercy and Justice. Know that you are in my prayers as you seek to do that which God desires from you.

I encourage you as others here have, to pray to God for guidance. May he lead you to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, where ever that takes you. Most of us here believe firmly that God’s truth is found in it’s fullness in the Church founded by Christ, the Catholic Church. If we are wrong, I believe we would all gladly follow God where ever he desire we go to be with him in the fullness of His truth. I sincerely wish that your searching bring you to God.

May God Bless you and be with you for the remainder of your days,

CARose

 

[riverman]

Go to this page and under “Multimedia” look for the “Conversion of Scott Hahn Part 1” and also part 2. catholic-pages.com/dir/converts.asp This is another great site to check out for his and his wives conversion to come home: mindspring.com/~jdarcy/files/drhahn.html and salvationhistory.com/ Take time to look deep into these sites! There in nothing but great info on them! I have his Conversion story on CD, if you want a copy PM me your address and I will get it to you! God Bless!

 

[kaycee]

Hi LadyCat

I know you are going thru alot! But you need to really think thru what you are signing up for.

The council of Trent is still in force and is the official teaching of the RC church. See Below. Please, I pray investigate!

Canon 24. If anyone says that the justice (righteousness) received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of the increase, let him be anathema.

Canon 32. If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ (of whom one is a living member), the justified does not truly merit an increase of grace, and eternal life, provided that one dies in the state of grace, the attainment of this eternal life, as well as an increase in glory, let him be anathema.

As Ludwig Ott states, the atonement of Christ is not the exclusive cause of man’s redemption. Man must supplement the work of Christ for sins committed after baptism by partially atoning and expiating his own sin through penance. Trent states that no one can be justified apart from the sacrament of penance (the confession of sin to a Roman Catholic priest, receiving his absolution and performing the required penance):

As regards those who, by sin, have fallen from the received grace of Justification, they may again be justified…through the sacrament of Penance…For, on behalf of those who fall into sins after baptism, Christ Jesus instituted the sacrament of Penance…and therein are included not only a cessation from sins, and a detestation thereof, or, a contrite and humble heart, but also the sacramental confession of said sins…and sacerdotal absolution; and likewise satisfaction by fasts, alms, prayers, and the other pious exercises of the spiritual life…for the temporal punishment, which…is not always wholly remitted.
If any one saith that he who has fallen after baptism…is able to recover the justice which he has lost…by faith alone without the sacrament of Penance…let him be anathema

Ludwig Ott emphasizes this in these words:
Justification is the declaration of the righteousness of the believer before the judgment seat of Christ…The Council of Trent teaches that for the justified eternal life is both a gift or grace promised by God and a reward for his own good works and merits … According to Holy Writ, eternal blessedness in heaven is the reward…for good works performed on this earth, and rewards and merit are correlative concepts (Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Rockford: Tan, 1974), pp.254, 264).

In order to be saved an individual must believe and hold to every doctrine dogmatically defined by the Roman Catholic Church. This entails not only the teaching of the Creed, the sacraments and justification but also the doctrines related to the Papacy (papal rule and infallibility), Mary (immaculate conception and assumption), the canon of scripture and purgatory. Vatican I states that it is necessary for salvation that an individual believe not only all that is revealed in Scripture but also everything defined and proposed by the Church. To reject anything officially taught by the Roman Church is to reject saving faith and to forfeit both justification and eternal life:

Further, all those things are to be believed with divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the Word of God, written or handed down, and which the Church, either by a solemn judgment, or by her ordinary and **universal magisterium, proposes ** for belief as having been divinely revealed. And since, without faith, it is impossible to please God, and to attain to the fellowship of his children, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will any one obtain eternal life unless he shall have persevered in faith unto the end (Dogmatic Decrees of the Vatican Council, On Faith, Chapter III. Found in Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom (New York:Harper, 1877), Volume II, pp. 244-245).

Ludwig Ott explains the relationship of Dogmas defined by the Church and faith in these words:

By dogma in the strict sense is understood a truth immediately (formally) revealed by God which has been proposed by the Teaching Authority of the Church to be believed as such.
…on account of its infallible doctrinal definition by the Church. If a baptised person deliberately denies or doubts a dogma properly so-called, he is guilty of the sin of heresy (Codex Iuris Canonici 1325, Par. 2), and automatically becomes subject to the punishment of excommunication (Codex Iuris Canonici 2314, Par. I).

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Kaycee,

Your perspective of Catholic teaching is terribly flawed. I have Dr. Ott’s book and have actually read it, not just picked out some quotes and formulated some caricature of what he teaches.

Do you know what he teaches are the ***causes of justification? ***

Look on page 251 of Dr. Ludwig Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma,

17. The Causes of Justification

The Council of Trent defined the following causes of justificaiton:

1. The final cause* (causa finalis) *is the honour of God and of Christ (primaria) and the eternal life of men (secundaria).

*2. *The **efficient cause **(causa efficiens) , more exactly, the main efficient cause (i.e. *principalis), *is the mercy of God.

1. The mertitorious cause (causa meritoria) is Jesus Christ, who as mediator between God and man, has made atonement for us and merited the grace by which we are justified.
2. The instrumental cause(causa instrumentalis) of the first justification is the Sacrament of Baptism. The declaration of the Council…defines that **Faith is a necessary pre-condition for justification (of adults) **(causa dispositiva).
3. The formal cause (causa formalis) is God’s justice…by which he makes us just"

Where is man’s “works” listed above?

There certainly are differences in Catholic and Protestant understanding of justification, and because Protestantism has so many variant and flawed versions, that it’s difficult to dialogue about it, as the theology differs depending upon the protestant that you are speaking with.

The Joint Declaration on Justification by Lutherans and Catholics may help some Protestants understand what the Catholic Church teaches in common with the Lutherans. It can be read here:
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

You can disageee with this all you like, but Scripture supports the Catholic understanding of justification.

Another great source that highlights the differences between Catholics and Calvinists (who differ on Justification with the Lutherans), is the debate between former Calvinist scholar Dr. Scott Hahn, and a Calvinist seminary professor. You can read that debate here:

The Debate on Justification Dr. Scott Hahn, Catholic convert and former Presbyterian minister vs. Dr. Robert Knudson of Westminster Theological Seminary)

I doubt Dr. Scott Hahn is unfamiliar with both Protestant and Catholic soteriology, so he must have been convinced of the biblical basis of Catholic doctrine of justification before he converted.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Earning grace and being rewarded grace are two different things. Catholicism rejects the error that anyone can earn grace. Grace is gratuitous, and is never earned.

Those already justified by God may certainly be rewarded with “grace upon grace” by God for their faithfulness. Thus, grace upon grace can increase those with “little faith” such that they may have “great faith.” We believe that such grace upon grace is important for our perseverance and in that sense, helps the faithful withstand tribulation and attain eternal life. The faithful do not “earn” grace upon grace, but by the mercy and goodness of God, the faithful are rewarded more grace.

Anyone who has ever read the Bible can cite many examples where God rewarded the faithful. This reward we call “merit.” It is not the cause of grace, as the only meritorious cause of grace is Jesus Christ. And, according to Catholic teaching, one must be already in a state of grace (justified) before God will reward faithfulness, which means nobody can merit justification for themselves.

As for merit properly so-called, only Jesus has merited in this manner for all mankind, the grace of justification. This is like being paid the just wage for work completed. The work completed by Jesus on Calvary has merited the grace of atonement for all mankind. This kind of merit is called condign merit. (cf. Catholic Encyclopedia - Merit)

Yet there’s another kind of merit, which is really pseudo-merit and not merit properly so-called, but is referred to as congruous merit. This is the “reward” that Scripture speaks of for being a good and faithful servant. It is not the cause of grace, but more likened to a channel of grace. This kind of merit is easy for a military guy like myself to understand, as it is also likened to a military medal awarded for meritorious service. Nobody has a strict right to a medal, and so it is completely gratuitous. Yet such reward is a reality, and in accord with distributive justice, purely based on the kindness of the reward-giver. Catholicism sees this kind of merit as a supernatural gift from God, completely gratuitous yet a very real blessing in response to faithfulness.

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

Ladycat:
May God reward your search! I too am a Protestant who has recently felt drawn to the Catholic Church. I still have many questions, and I’m still very unsure about what to believe, but the people on this forum have been extremely helpful. I think I now know a hundred times more about Catholicism than I did before. Thanks, guys!

God Bless!

 

[Church_Militant]

You are ALWAYS welcome IP!

Catholics generally love to share our faith, but (hopefully) you’ve seen that we don’t push very hard at all. Primarily that is because we feel that it is the work of the Holy Spirit to draw people to the truth and our job is to help you get those answers you need.

I had been away from the faith for over 34 years, but never really anti-Catholic and it was the result of an a-C attack on our Marian beliefs that got me digging and ultimately led me back home to the faith.

For those who are really seeking and want to get into a great Catholic study series. I suggest The Catholic Home Study Service which offers at least 7 courses FREE.
I have completed all they offer and begged for more. Their new book on the Mass (“We Worship…”) is really outstanding, though there are no losers in any of their offerings.
Pax vobiscum,

 

[ElizabethJoy]

Church Militant:

For those who are really seeking and want to get into a great Catholic study series. I suggest The Catholic Home Study Service which offers at least 7 courses FREE.

Seconded! I’ve only done the first course, “We Believe; A Survey of the Catholic Faith” but it was a very good overview. I’m expecting the one on the mass to arrive any time now - glad to hear that you thought it was so good.

Have a great day!
Elizabeth

 

[kaycee]

itsjustdave1988:

Kaycee,

Your perspective of Catholic teaching is terribly flawed. I have Dr. Ott’s book and have actually read it, not just picked out some quotes and formulated some caricature of what he teaches.

Do you know what he teaches are the ***causes of justification? ***

Look on page 251 of Dr. Ludwig Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma,

Where is man’s “works” listed above?

I believe I was quoting mostly from Trent which seemed clear enough in its anathemas. Are you intimating that Trent is no longer in force?

Are not the issues the same that divide? The slight change seems to be the protestant friendly terminlogy used by todays RC apologists.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

kaycee:

I believe I was quoting mostly from Trent which seemed clear enough in its anathemas. Are you intimating that Trent is no longer in force?

Are not the issues the same that divide? The slight change seems to be the protestant friendly terminlogy used by todays RC apologists.

The teachings of Trent are still Catholic doctrine, but the anathemas are in force depending upon what is meant by the assertions of Protestants today, which appears to have changed since Trent.

It appears from the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification by the Lutherans and Catholics that, today, what some Protestants mean about “faith alone” is something quite different than the teaching anathematized by Trent. I recommend you read the entire document, including the footnotes. It explains what Catholics mean and what Lutherans mean by the joint declaration. There are still things that we do not agree upon, but through much dialogue, it appears that many protestants do not consider “faith alone” to be a justifying faith if it is de-coupled from love and the “obedience of faith” which is what Catholics have insisted upon all along.

Catholics assert that faith must worketh in charity to be salvific, and agree with St. Paul’s assertion that faith, even if it is a faith so strong it can move mountains, if it is without love, it is nothing. Thus, many Protestants have come to agree that faith decoupled from love and the obedience of faith is not a justifying faith.

For further information, I recommend you study…

***JOINT DECLARATION ***
ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION
by the Lutheran World Federation
and the Catholic Church
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

There’s a discussion about this document here:
Are we justified by faith alone?

 

[kaycee]

itsjustdave1988:

It appears from the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification by the Lutherans and Catholics that, today, what some Protestants mean about “faith alone” is something quite different than the teaching anathematized by Trent.

So you do not agree with Peter Kreeft of Boston College when he said Luther was right?

 

[itsjustdave1988]

kaycee,

I don’t know what Peter Kreeft said, nor the context in which he said it. Nevertheless, Luther was right in some instances, and wrong in others.

Luther was right, when he lamented…

There are almost as many sects and beliefs as there are heads; this one will not admit baptism; that one rejects the Sacrament of the altar; another places another world between the present one and the day of judgment; some teach that Jesus Christ is not God. There is not an individual, however clownish he may be, who does not claim to be inspired by the Holy Ghost, and who does not put forth as prophecies his ravings and dreams. (Martin Luther, as cited in Ray, S., Faith of Our Fathers)

Luther was also right here:

Since the downfall of Popery and the cessation of excommunications and spiritual penalties, the people have learned to despise the word of God. They no longer care for the churches; they have ceased to fear and honor God…After throwing off the yoke of the Pope, everyone wishes to live as he pleases. [They say] ‘we will spend the day like Lutherans. Drunkenness has come upon us like a deluge.’ If God had not closed my eyes, and if I had foreseen these scandals, I would never have begun to teach the gospel." (WL 6, 920)

And here…

I confess… that I am more negligent than I was under the Pope and there is now nowhere such an amount of earnestness under the Gospel, as was fomerly seen among monks and priests." (WL 9. 1311)

And here, in a letter to Zwingli, where Luther writes…

If the world last long it will be again necessary, on account of the different interpretations of Scripture which now exist, that to preserve the unity of faith we should receive the Councils and decrees and fly to them for refuge." (Contra Zuingli et Oecol. cited in “Sola Scriptura: A Blueprint For Anarchy” by Patrick Madrid)