Coordinated anti-Christian attacks in Baghdad killed at least three and injured several dozen on Tuesday night and Wednesday morning

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There is a perception, fed by Western/American idealism, that everyone recognizes (or eventually will recognize) democracy as the best form of government and that the implementation of democracy in a given society will ultimately lead to a more fair and just society. I do not think this is supportable in light of much evidence to the contrary. Exhibit A: The democratic election of Hamas in Palestine. There are of course counter examples to this even in the region (e.g., Hezbollah’s richly deserved defeat in the Lebanese elections back in June), but notice how such exceptions often provoke political crises when the losing side is unwilling to accept a new order in which they do not have the power and influence they once enjoyed. Why things would be any different, let alone any better, in Iraq, i don’t know. The sad fact is that democracy is not fated to triumph, and even if it were it certainly isn’t going to before the Iraqi Christians are all liquidated.

To put it bluntly, I find the idea of an Iraqi “democracy” (which in reality will be anything but) built on the blood of innocent religious minorities to be the sickest thing imaginable. Regardless of how you feel about the correctness or incorrectness of invading Iraq in the first place, I hope you’ll agree that essentially ordering the peaceful minorities of Iraq to die or leave the country in order to pave the way for a political system of unknown effectiveness in the context of the country in which it was forcibly installed is inherently evil. Did the Assyrians agree to die for this democracy? Did the Yazidis? The Kurds? The Arabs of all religious and political persuasions? I hope I am not stereotyping people to an unfair degree (after all, I know plenty of people from the Middle East who love democracy, and would like to see it flourish in their home countries), but it seems to me that all this flowery talk about how democracy will take hold and everyone will be free, etc. is a lot of after-the-fact justification for a failed political project.

No democracy or other political movement has ever been successful without domestic, grassroots support of the ideals behind it (and plenty have failed even with these). For instance, despite the popular idea, communism did not fall in Eastern Europe because Ronald Reagan willed it in his speech at the Berlin wall, but because the people of Berlin willed it. In the case of Iraq, the people who could be the greatest supporters of a democratic Iraq are being bullied and worse by a bunch of maniacs with guns who don’t want “their OWN brand of democracy” to rule in Iraq, only their own brand of Islam. There is no reason why they won’t get it, and plenty of reasons why they may.
 
I was actually referencing … I know you disagree with that, but that’s fine.
My, but how did anyone ever get that idea? :hmmm: :rolleyes:
MY opinion----nothing more, nothing less. I simply have more faith in the New president, who is passionate about Democratic Change, than you do.
What new President?
There will b e years of turmoil and instabiltity, but ultimately Irqis will develop their OWn brand of Democracy.
Oh, you mean “democracy” like in Iran? Or Saudi Arabia? Yeo, those are “democratic” alright … :rolleyes:
And I DO pray that Christians are part of that new Government. The problem is, our Government basically does not care about them. We’re on our way out. So nothing is being done. 😦
Do you think the US Government actually cared one whit about the fate of the native Christians in Iraq in 2003? or 2004? or at any time during the reign of the previous occupant of the White House??? Please. They could have cared less. (Just as they cared less in 1975 when war erupted in Lebanon.) First thing they “secured” was the Oil Ministry. That should say enough all by itself. :mad:

Whether there are Christians (or even one) in the so-called “new government” is absolutely meaningless. The government is still beholden to clients of the regime across the eastern border. As it has been since provisional authority gave way to this “democratic” system. (The provisional authority also had a provisional flag made up of symbols of the 3 main ethnic groups. That, of course, was abandoned too.)
BTW, most people say it was a Whale that swallowed Jonah----to be technical about it, the Bible says “Big Fish”----although most are willing to concede it was a Whale------I have no problem with that, but you never know…😃

And it DID swallow Jonah. Jonah just did not “agree” with it. 😃
Yeah, well … maybe I should adjust the line to say “as the whale said to Jonah, I ain’t adigestin’ that.”
 
To add to this--------------Iraq is ultimately better off without Saddam in it.Most would agree with that. Even Non-Republicans. And we will see change in Iraq for the Good. Maybe not in our lifeitme, but we will see change for the Good. 👍
The problem I see is that if you remove a dictator, all hell breaks lose. This is happening in the Philippines. For over 20 years we had Marcos rule the country and he sucked the country’s coffers dry. We got rid of him in '86 but until today the Philippines is suffering from the same culture of corruption that Marcos fostered. Some even say it was better during the time of Marcos because at least you know who is robbing the nation of its money. Now you can’t even tell, almost every politician is corrupt, is a crook. The support illegal gambling, prostitution, drug cartels, smuggling, etc. And its been almost 25 years since Marcos was removed. The problem is the prevailing culture of corruption. I fear that this is what is happening in Iraq as well. Saddam is gone but many Saddam wannabes have taken his place, albeit they don’t have a wide presence and power and popularity as Saddam, the Iraqis are now up against hundreds, maybe thousands of mini-Saddams trying to set up their own little empire in local districts.
 
My, but how did anyone ever get that idea? :hmmm: :rolleyes:

What new President?

Oh, you mean “democracy” like in Iran? Or Saudi Arabia? Yeo, those are “democratic” alright … :rolleyes:

Do you think the US Government actually cared one whit about the fate of the native Christians in Iraq in 2003? or 2004? or at any time during the reign of the previous occupant of the White House??? Please. They could have cared less. (Just as they cared less in 1975 when war erupted in Lebanon.) First thing they “secured” was the Oil Ministry. That should say enough all by itself. :mad:

Whether there are Christians (or even one) in the so-called “new government” is absolutely meaningless. The government is still beholden to clients of the regime across the eastern border. As it has been since provisional authority gave way to this “democratic” system. (The provisional authority also had a provisional flag made up of symbols of the 3 main ethnic groups. That, of course, was abandoned too.)

Yeah, well … maybe I should adjust the line to say “as the whale said to Jonah, I ain’t adigestin’ that.”
The New President is the President Of Iraq. Remember him?
 
The problem I see is that if you remove a dictator, all hell breaks lose. This is happening in the Philippines. For over 20 years we had Marcos rule the country and he sucked the country’s coffers dry. We got rid of him in '86 but until today the Philippines is suffering from the same culture of corruption that Marcos fostered. Some even say it was better during the time of Marcos because at least you know who is robbing the nation of its money. Now you can’t even tell, almost every politician is corrupt, is a crook. The support illegal gambling, prostitution, drug cartels, smuggling, etc. And its been almost 25 years since Marcos was removed. The problem is the prevailing culture of corruption. I fear that this is what is happening in Iraq as well. Saddam is gone but many Saddam wannabes have taken his place, albeit they don’t have a wide presence and power and popularity as Saddam, the Iraqis are now up against hundreds, maybe thousands of mini-Saddams trying to set up their own little empire in local districts.
I don’t quite agree with you, Constantitne, but you HAVE written a thought-provoking post. I always enjoy them, even when I don’t quite agree with them.

Ultimately, from MY point of view, the fatal mistake that occurred in Iraq was the failure of the U.S. Forces to eradicate those newly-let loose elements that came out after Iraq fell. Even I remember people saying that the country to be secured after the Fall of Baghdad.

But those “elements” were allowed to come in (many from the outside) and that’s when the problem started. And we and the Country are now paying for it.

On that, I agree with you. The idea that destabilization would occur was not considered enough and the you-know-what was allowed to hit the fan.

Does not mean that the original acts which triggered some of this were not correct anyway. MY opinion, of course. But I do see where you are coming from.
 
I don’t quite agree with you, Constantitne, but you HAVE written a thought-provoking post. I always enjoy them, even when I don’t quite agree with them.

Ultimately, from MY point of view, the fatal mistake that occurred in Iraq was the failure of the U.S. Forces to eradicate those newly-let loose elements that came out after Iraq fell. Even I remember people saying that the country to be secured after the Fall of Baghdad.

But those “elements” were allowed to come in (many from the outside) and that’s when the problem started. And we and the Country are now paying for it.

On that, I agree with you. The idea that destabilization would occur was not considered enough and the you-know-what was allowed to hit the fan.

Does not mean that the original acts which triggered some of this was not correct anyway. MY opinion, of course. But I do see where you are coming from.
Thanks. I don’t believe this will last forever but it would take an entire generation. People learn to adapt to their environment and the environment that Saddam fostered is not a good one. Everyone’s mentallity is geared towards that unfortunately. Sadly, Iraq’s situation is not unique. Many nations that got rid of their dictators suffer the same problem. Its like cancer. If you had it for a while, taking the tumor out doesn’t completely remove the cancer. Now you have to deal with the multitude of cancer cells.
 
There isn’t one. (And the President has almost no authority anyway, but never mind that.) It’s still Jalal Talabani Remember him?
That’s who I meant. And I’d rather have a “Weak” President in Iraq than none at all, personally.👍
 
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