Corporate sin vs personal sin

[Rand_Al_Thor]

I was having a discussion with a protestant who comes from a Lutheran background about free will and culpability for sin. His argument was that because of corporate sin and lack of free will (Luther’s influence, obviously), people like the Arizona shooter have no responsibility for their actions. Rather, he says, it is everyone else in society that is to blame for everything people do. Essentially, it seems he believes the only sins we are responsible for are the sins others commit, but not our own. He even went as far as to say–when I cited a local case in Oregon where a man was beaten with a baseball bat by a transient AFTER buying the man lunch but not having more money to give when the man DEMANDED more–the victim of that crime is to blame for the transient beating him senseless because of the “lack of compassion” for homeless people in society.

Of course, he has been claiming “historic Christianity”, which I always find hilarious when debating protestants. Anyone else ever run into this type of discussion or have good suggestions of the best points to make? After asking for Scriptural references, he dismissed the story of the rich man and Lazarus out of hand (I was saying that shows we are held accountable for sins we commit during our lives) and completely ignored my quotation from Deuteronomy (children not responsible for sins of their fathers).

In Christ,
Rand

 

[Barbkw]

Corporate sin and collective salvation; both requiring no personal responsibility.

 

[smichhertz]

Corporate sin is nothing more than a summary of personal sins. Every single corporate sin can be broken down into a series of individual sins. Sin is a very personal thing because it is ultimately the violation of an individual’s conscience.

Anyone who tries to say that we are ONLY responsible for the sin of others and not ourselves is completely ignorant of the teachings of Jesus Christ which always focus on the individual’s responsibility for their own actions / inaction.

 

[puzzleannie]

I was having a discussion with a protestant who comes from a Lutheran background about free will and culpability for sin. His argument was that because of corporate sin and lack of free will (Luther’s influence, obviously), people like the Arizona shooter have no responsibility for their actions. Rather, he says, it is everyone else in society that is to blame for everything people do.
In Christ,
Rand

that does not sound like anything in Luther’s teaching that I ever heard of. Ask him for documentation of his remarkable moral theology.

 

[svid]

So, do I go to hell (God forbid) personally for these murders, or does all of our society, as a whole, go? And all previous societies? Is Heaven empty, or are all the worst sinners there? Does this guy believe in these places?

 

[inkaneer]

Protestantism in all its forms has been devolving for 500 years. Protestants are now down to having no personal culpability for sins. What’s next, the denial that sin exists?

 

[Barbkw]

Protestantism in all its forms has been devolving for 500 years. Protestants are now down to having no personal culpability for sins. What’s next, the denial that sin exists?

I listen to Bott Radio, an Evangelical station this is also available online. They often talk about conversion (but don’t use that word) and justification before God by grace. As a listener, I’m often left wondering why they never get into specifics.

Conversion from what; replaced by what?

 

[Chris258]

I was having a discussion with a protestant who comes from a Lutheran background about free will and culpability for sin. His argument was that because of corporate sin and lack of free will (Luther’s influence, obviously), people like the Arizona shooter have no responsibility for their actions. Rather, he says, it is everyone else in society that is to blame for everything people do. Essentially, it seems he believes the only sins we are responsible for are the sins others commit, but not our own. He even went as far as to say–when I cited a local case in Oregon where a man was beaten with a baseball bat by a transient AFTER buying the man lunch but not having more money to give when the man DEMANDED more–the victim of that crime is to blame for the transient beating him senseless because of the “lack of compassion” for homeless people in society.

I really have no idea where your companion is getting this. Luther may have believed human will to be so utterly corrupt that, for all intents and purposes, it wasn’t truly operational ‘free’ will. But I don’t think he ever taught that a person is not personally guilty or responsible for his own sins.

Also, I don’t think ‘corporate sin’ is necessarily opposed to Catholic doctrine. If it’s the kind of corporate sin that your friend is talking about – where I should be punished for my neighbor’s act of murder, theft, lust, etc. – then obviously that is incompatible with Catholic doctrine. But the Catholic doctrine of pervasive Original Sin (not Original Guilt but a lack of sanctifying grace in the conception of each human person as Adam and Eve forfeited it for themselves and could not pass it on) necessitates the reality of corporate sin. From the ‘sins of commission’ perspective, my personal sin does not just have effects for me; it echoes throughout and touches my human relationships and by extension into human society. From the other side, ‘sins of omission’, by being slothful in accepting opportunities to combat the spread of societal sin, I have aided in its continuation.

This idea that our personal sins (and their effects) are totally between us and God, with the Body of Christ the Church being a very helpful but ultimately unnecessary aid, is more of an Evangelical Protestant idea. It is certainly not Catholic. Neither is this (very odd) idea that everyone else except the sinner himself ought to be punished for those sins.

 

[Barbkw]

Corporate sin is nothing more than a summary of personal sins. Every single corporate sin can be broken down into a series of individual sins. Sin is a very personal thing because it is ultimately the violation of an individual’s conscience.

"Corporate sin is not limited to the activities of corporations. Rather, a corporate sin is one that is given the fuel to perpetuate itself via the cooperation of an entire society. The word,
corporate, is derived from the word, body.

Thus, a corporate sin is an evil that is supported by the body politic of the region or nation where it is committed. That is to say, a corporate sin occurs when the vast majority of society makes itself an accessory to that sin.

Nazi Germany is the quintessential example of corporate sin and the sin of cooperation. In addition, Corporate sin is also known as social scandal."

Corporate sin would be the sin committed by the Supreme Court in their passing of the laws to kill the unborn. It is a personal sin to commit abortion, and those individual sins reinforce the continuation of abortion as a united front - a corporate sin.

Politicans and the political party that supports and protects abortion commit both a personal and a corporate sin.

That is why several Archbishops have said that Catholic pro abortion politicans must make both a private confession and a public conversion - to correct the public scandal.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

that does not sound like anything in Luther’s teaching that I ever heard of. Ask him for documentation of his remarkable moral theology.

I did and he has now ended the discussion, saying I am too ridiculous to discuss it with. To be a little more clear, the free will part was what I was referring to as Luther’s ideas, not the weird idea of corporate sin this guy has.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

I really have no idea where your companion is getting this. Luther may have believed human will to be so utterly corrupt that, for all intents and purposes, it wasn’t truly operational ‘free’ will. But I don’t think he ever taught that a person is not personally guilty or responsible for his own sins.

Also, I don’t think ‘corporate sin’ is necessarily opposed to Catholic doctrine. If it’s the kind of corporate sin that your friend is talking about – where I should be punished for my neighbor’s act of murder, theft, lust, etc. – then obviously that is incompatible with Catholic doctrine. But the Catholic doctrine of pervasive Original Sin (not Original Guilt but a lack of sanctifying grace in the conception of each human person as Adam and Eve forfeited it for themselves and could not pass it on) necessitates the reality of corporate sin. From the ‘sins of commission’ perspective, my personal sin does not just have effects for me; it echoes throughout and touches my human relationships and by extension into human society. From the other side, ‘sins of omission’, by being slothful in accepting opportunities to combat the spread of societal sin, I have aided in its continuation.

This idea that our personal sins (and their effects) are totally between us and God, with the Body of Christ the Church being a very helpful but ultimately unnecessary aid, is more of an Evangelical Protestant idea. It is certainly not Catholic. Neither is this (very odd) idea that everyone else except the sinner himself ought to be punished for those sins.

I wasn’t very clear in my first post, but we were originally discussing free will (he does not believe in it because of his Lutheran background) and then it evolved into a combination of free will and corporate sin. What got it started was that I said it was ridiculous that people have started pointing fingers to blame people for the Arizona shooting because the shooter was the one that made the choice to kill people when he could have chosen not to do it. That got started with how the shooter didn’t have any free will and he committed the sin because of all of the lack of compassion in our society and can’t be held accountable for it…but everyone else, including the victims of the shooting, is responsible for it.

I don’t think corporate sin is incompatible with Catholic teaching, and obviously we can have societies that are sinful and influence people to sin. We are our “brother’s keepers”, of course, but I don’t believe that extends to having a share in the guilt for every sin they commit towards other people.

Anyway, he has now ended the discussion because I am, apparently, un-Christian and out of line with historical Christianity because I don’t believe victims of crime are to blame for the criminals’ actions.

In Christ,
Rand

 

[Chris258]

I wasn’t very clear in my first post, but we were originally discussing free will (he does not believe in it because of his Lutheran background) and then it evolved into a combination of free will and corporate sin. What got it started was that I said it was ridiculous that people have started pointing fingers to blame people for the Arizona shooting because the shooter was the one that made the choice to kill people when he could have chosen not to do it. That got started with how the shooter didn’t have any free will and he committed the sin because of all of the lack of compassion in our society and can’t be held accountable for it…but everyone else, including the victims of the shooting, is responsible for it.

Sounds like a very misplaced kind of compassion.

I don’t think corporate sin is incompatible with Catholic teaching, and obviously we can have societies that are sinful and influence people to sin. We are our “brother’s keepers”, of course, but I don’t believe that extends to having a share in the guilt for every sin they commit towards other people.

Indeedy. The reality of corporate sin is a strange paradox.

Anyway, he has now ended the discussion because I am, apparently, un-Christian and out of line with historical Christianity because I don’t believe victims of crime are to blame for the criminals’ actions.

That’s a pity. Not implying that you were actually uncharitable. But I’ve sometimes been quite good at alienating fellow Christians whose ideas I simply find inconceivable given their identification as Christian. It’s true sometimes people are just over-sensitive (or worse, just don’t want to consider criticism of their ideas) but I hope I can minimize what part I play in such alienation.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

That’s a pity. Not implying that you were actually uncharitable. But I’ve sometimes been quite good at alienating fellow Christians whose ideas I simply find inconceivable given their identification as Christian. It’s true sometimes people are just over-sensitive (or worse, just don’t want to consider criticism of their ideas) but I hope I can minimize what part I play in such alienation.

It wasn’t because of any kind of uncharity. He said my argument was too ridiculous to debate and I was un-Christian for believing the way I do. It’s kind of too bad, because based on his last post, I think I was starting to get an idea of where he was coming from with his belief and that could have led to a better debate.