Corrupt Church?

[mark_a]

Something else I found interesting, digging back into that passage, is the word translated as “hell.” It’s different than I remember being used for other applications of that word. Most of the time when you see the English “hell,” the Greek is either “gehena” or “hades,” each of which seems to imply a place or location, even if spiritually. The word in this passage is “adou,” which might be more along the lines of “the unseen spiritual world.” To translate that word “hell” is probably not wrong, per se, but it loses a little something to our modern ears.

Do you suppose the meaning might be the same as the “he decended into ‘hell’” from the Apostles Creed, often recited as "he decended to the ‘dead’?

 

[JRKH]

.
Something else I found interesting, digging back into that passage, is the word translated as “hell.” It’s different than I remember being used for other applications of that word. Most of the time when you see the English “hell,” the Greek is either “gehena” or “hades,” each of which seems to imply a place or location, even if spiritually. The word in this passage is “adou,” which might be more along the lines of “the unseen spiritual world.” To translate that word “hell” is probably not wrong, per se, but it loses a little something to our modern ears.

According to This source, the term “adou” is apparently a form of “Hades” so “hell” would be a sufficiently accurate translation. (Click on the link above and then click on the word you want to translate)

Peace
James

 

[GloriousOrder]

Never forget the story of the Jew who converted to Catholicism because he saw how corrupt the Church was in Rome, and yet that it had managed to survive for 1500 years (at the time). The survival of the Church alone was a miracle, given the attitudes of many popes, cardinals, and archbishops. “Such a corrupt government surviving for more than a thousand years is proof that God’s working miracles through the Catholic Church!”

Human action is never perfect, but the Church’s supernatural reality in Heaven still leads the Church to right order and … well, simply staying alive. Corruption in the Church is a sign that we must mortify ourselves more. Whenever corruption and laxity abound, a St. Dominic, a St. Francis, or a St. Ignatius Loyola appears to sort it out.

 

[WorkerPriest]

Indeed, I’m sure it is sufficient. But like all translation work, there is almost always more in the original language, than can be cleanly brought forward into another language.

Peace be with you.

According to This source, the term “adou” is apparently a form of “Hades” so “hell” would be a sufficiently accurate translation. (Click on the link above and then click on the word you want to translate)

Peace
James

 

[Cat_Herder]

The following is cross-posted from the thread Faith alone or not?

I fear you are right, and you will never get an answer here. MD cannot accept that God gave the Apostles any authority in this matter. To do so would cause his theology to unravel. You see, the ideas upon which his theology is based were founded upon a desire to rejec that authority. Calvin and his peers, during the Reformation, were reacting to the corruption of European clerics

By the time Calvin had obtained his influence, the Reformation had ceased to be about religion (if it ever was) and was entirely about politics. That is why Luther, Calvin and Zwingli were called magisterial reformers; they were supported by magistrates who wanted to use religion to gain civil authority. Said magistrates then went on to commit atrocious acts of war against Catholics and Catholic countries. Even the so-called radical reformers, who were not supported by the state, committed violence for political gain in the German Peasants’ War and the [English Civil War.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English Civil War)

Basically, the Reformation was all about war. Learned people can argue about whether or not the Reformers themselves were power-mongers or whether their own teachings were simply corrupted by politicians, but the result of the reforming was the worst war the world has ever seen.

 

[guanophore]

From the amount of books I have read about the Church during the Renaissance and Medieval period; it seems that the Church gets the picture of some sort of villain.

Most of them say the Church didn’t give anyone freedom of speech, like, if someone had an opinion about the faith they were immediately jailed etc. A lot of them also say that the Pope often threatened to remove blessings of a certain Italian state, which made the certain states give the Pope gifts to try cool his anger.

Was it really like this? Or is this just the normal view of the Church to most atheists today?

This condition is the result of the combination of “church and State”. When the Western
Empire collapsed, the Emperor moved the center of governance from Rome to Constantinople. When the secular rulers prepared to depart Italy, there were no other structures present capable of managing the civic affairs, so the Bishop of Rome was chosen to do so, and given the secular title of “Pontiff”, and the secular authority to accompany it. This was the beginning of the damage that lasted about 1000 years, and precipitated the Reformation.

 

[Cat_Herder]

This condition is the result of the combination of “church and State”. When the Western
Empire collapsed, the Emperor moved the center of governance from Rome to Constantinople. When the secular rulers prepared to depart Italy, there were no other structures present capable of managing the civic affairs, so the Bishop of Rome was chosen to do so, and given the secular title of “Pontiff”, and the secular authority to accompany it. This was the beginning of the damage that lasted about 1000 years, and precipitated the Reformation.

I am not so sure that the Papal States had anything whatsoever to do with the Reformation… could you elaborate?

 

[guanophore]

I am not so sure that the Papal States had anything whatsoever to do with the Reformation… could you elaborate?

I am sure they did not, since they did not yet exist, so no, I can’t elaborate.

 

[Cat_Herder]

I am sure they did not, since they did not yet exist, so no, I can’t elaborate.

But the Pope had considerably more temporal power then than he does now—however, the ostensible cause of the Reformation was abuses regarding indulgences, not the temporal power of the Pope. Am I missing something?

 

[JimG]

Wow, thanks all for the answers, I cant wait to read even more!

The only problem I have is that sure, maybe if it was one book that claims this then it might be biased and untrue; but almost ALL sources claim it.

Have you read this book?
Or this one? Or this one?

 

[JRKH]

But the Pope had considerably more temporal power then than he does now—however, the ostensible cause of the Reformation was abuses regarding indulgences, not the temporal power of the Pope. Am I missing something?

It’s hard to pin these things down but basically, over time, the attempted blending of Spiritual and Secular leadership in The Church, led to choices in Church leadership that were, shall we say, “less than optimal”, from a spiritual standpoint.
In addition this great secular power held by The Church caused no small amount of resentment among the nobility of the various nation states of Europe. They resented the economic, political and diplomatic “intrusions” into their realms. Thus, when the “Theological/Doctrinal” matter of indugences arose from Luther’s 95 theses, some of the princes siezed upon the the widespread unrest for political gain. Other nations, ostensibly loyal to The church, countered this in wars and other actions that, again, were far more political than theological in nature.
So while you are right that indulgences were the spark, the conflagration that ensued was much more complex with many sources of fuel keeping it going.

Peace
James

 

[Cat_Herder]

In addition this great secular power held by The Church caused no small amount of resentment among the nobility of the various nation states of Europe. They resented the economic, political and diplomatic “intrusions” into their realms. Thus, when the “Theological/Doctrinal” matter of indugences arose from Luther’s 95 theses, some of the princes siezed upon the the widespread unrest for political gain. Other nations, ostensibly loyal to The church, countered this in wars and other actions that, again, were far more political than theological in nature.

Yes, exactly.

 

[guanophore]

But the Pope had considerably more temporal power then than he does now—however, the ostensible cause of the Reformation was abuses regarding indulgences, not the temporal power of the Pope. Am I missing something?

Yes, I think you are missing the main picture. Luthers Theses were just a small pebble that started an avalanche that had been loosening for centuries.

The money was being fleeced to build the Cathedral in Rome. The locals wanted the money, as well as the political power, to remain at home.

Roman clerics, involved in politics for 1000 years, had amassed untold wealth and temporal power. Since rebelling against them was considered the same as rebelling against the Church (and therefore, God) The Holy Roman Empire was able to keep a grip on European Catholic countries by coercing them through the threat of excommunication. The small matter of taking advantage of the ignorant by appearing to “sell grace” in the form of indulgences was only one small symptom of the corruption.

 

[Gumbercules]

From the amount of books I have read about the Church during the Renaissance and Medieval period; it seems that the Church gets the picture of some sort of villain.

Most of them say the Church didn’t give anyone freedom of speech, like, if someone had an opinion about the faith they were immediately jailed etc. A lot of them also say that the Pope often threatened to remove blessings of a certain Italian state, which made the certain states give the Pope gifts to try cool his anger.

Was it really like this? Or is this just the normal view of the Church to most atheists today?

Yes, there were excesses in the Medieval and Renaissance Church. The Counter-Reformation corrected the problems.

The Protestant Reformation was 20 percent ideological and 80 percent political.