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OAB
Guest
Can it be morally justifies. Im looking for some bible verses that somewhat realate. (I understand that they probably arnt explicit, but implicit is fine). Even theology and philosophy is fine. Thanks
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jmm08
Guest
Surgery has risks.
With certain things such as this, I think the motive must be examined. The moral question is in the motive rather than in the action.
Examples:
If you are concerned, then talk with somebody about it.
With certain things such as this, I think the motive must be examined. The moral question is in the motive rather than in the action.
Examples:
- A Doctor wants to perform surgury on a young child or infant because of a hare-lip or cleft palate. I think it is plainly obvious that his intent is one of loving concern.
- A young woman wants to augment her normal sized breasts. In this case, the motive may not be godly.
If you are concerned, then talk with somebody about it.
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OAB
Guest
Actually, the surgury is not for me or anyone that I know. THe topic just came up one day, and I was unsure of how to answer, so I was looking for biblical references.
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Faithful_2_Rome
Guest
Though the Bible speaks of Vanity…relying on the badly flawed theory of “Sola Scriptura” to try and prove something is dangerous…
one doesnt need to find the verses…but the implications of Vanity ARE there…like the other poster stated…it all depends on where the person is coming from…psychologically, emotionally and spiritually… and we can be pretty good judges by other things in the bible to figure that out…most of the time.
Rhinoplasty to breath easier…not a sin at all
Rhinoplasty to look like a FAIRY…aka…Peter Pan…aka…Michael Jackson…SIN
A woman who has had a breast removed due to cancer… and emotionally needs to feel complete and “whole”… and therefore has augmentation…not a sin at all
A woman who was born totally flat chested…not a sin at all
A woman who wants outragiously sized breasts to attract men, get jobs… etc… SIN
one doesnt need to find the verses…but the implications of Vanity ARE there…like the other poster stated…it all depends on where the person is coming from…psychologically, emotionally and spiritually… and we can be pretty good judges by other things in the bible to figure that out…most of the time.
Rhinoplasty to breath easier…not a sin at all
Rhinoplasty to look like a FAIRY…aka…Peter Pan…aka…Michael Jackson…SIN
A woman who has had a breast removed due to cancer… and emotionally needs to feel complete and “whole”… and therefore has augmentation…not a sin at all
A woman who was born totally flat chested…not a sin at all
A woman who wants outragiously sized breasts to attract men, get jobs… etc… SIN
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Della
Guest
I think certain allowances ought to be made to human weakness, which is not necessarily sin.
Some examples of what I mean:
The removal of excess skin after losing a great deal of weight;
Augmentation for a better appearance when looking good is a part of one’s job, such as salespeople or actors;
To improve a self image that is overwhelmed by a physical defect that can easily be corrected;
Removal of scars, etc.
These are not life and death reasons, or even physical functionality reasons (such as a cleft palate or lengthening of limbs for better mobility, etc). But, they are human reasons that may not be wrong for some people in the right circumstances.
Some examples of what I mean:
The removal of excess skin after losing a great deal of weight;
Augmentation for a better appearance when looking good is a part of one’s job, such as salespeople or actors;
To improve a self image that is overwhelmed by a physical defect that can easily be corrected;
Removal of scars, etc.
These are not life and death reasons, or even physical functionality reasons (such as a cleft palate or lengthening of limbs for better mobility, etc). But, they are human reasons that may not be wrong for some people in the right circumstances.
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Mijoy2
Guest
On a different but similiar note, I have recently questioned bodybuilding and/or weightlifting. My quesion is not the professional or competitive aspect of bodybuilding but more an individual who works out hard in an effort to look and feel better.
I suppose it becomes a question of obsession or degree. If so, where is the threshold? Is working out an hour four days a week okay but 2 hours a day sinful?
I thoroughly enjoy working out with weights. To be honest (and of course we all try to be after all this is a Catholic forum
), I am not certain of the motive. There are certainly a number of benefits (secularily speaking). Better overall health, stronger, slows the aging process and of course looking better. But how does one honeslty weigh these benefits? When does the benefit become an exercise in vanity? For example, one does not need to do a 300lb bench press to get through life when carrying shopping bags is about the biggest task we ask of our muscles. Now if one works hard to accomplish the goal of a 300 lb benchpress, is he/she being sinful? Sometimes I question my motive for this activity. I wonder if it is somehow sinful to care how strong one is or how one looks. But then again, people will spend a lot of money on a nice looking car, or work hard to better a garden or landscaping on thier property. Isn’t this the same thing? Is it sinful to care how our bodies look but okay to care about how our property looks?
I suppose it becomes a question of obsession or degree. If so, where is the threshold? Is working out an hour four days a week okay but 2 hours a day sinful?
I thoroughly enjoy working out with weights. To be honest (and of course we all try to be after all this is a Catholic forum
), I am not certain of the motive. There are certainly a number of benefits (secularily speaking). Better overall health, stronger, slows the aging process and of course looking better. But how does one honeslty weigh these benefits? When does the benefit become an exercise in vanity? For example, one does not need to do a 300lb bench press to get through life when carrying shopping bags is about the biggest task we ask of our muscles. Now if one works hard to accomplish the goal of a 300 lb benchpress, is he/she being sinful? Sometimes I question my motive for this activity. I wonder if it is somehow sinful to care how strong one is or how one looks. But then again, people will spend a lot of money on a nice looking car, or work hard to better a garden or landscaping on thier property. Isn’t this the same thing? Is it sinful to care how our bodies look but okay to care about how our property looks?
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Faithful_2_Rome
Guest
Yes…self image within reason is very important for a persons emotional stability… someone wishing to correct very bad teeth, oversized nose… droppy eyelids always giving a look of tiredness…I have nothing against these folks at all…
then there are people who risk surgery to look like the actual Barbie Doll…or Elvis, Michael Jackson…even if its to assist in entertaining…I think it is highly bizarre to do in order to make a living…can you sing and dance as good as Elvis or Jackson? God bless…make a name for YOURSELF…do you NATURALLY look like them or others and can make a living as a celebrity look alike…without having risky surgery? more power to ya…
then there are people who risk surgery to look like the actual Barbie Doll…or Elvis, Michael Jackson…even if its to assist in entertaining…I think it is highly bizarre to do in order to make a living…can you sing and dance as good as Elvis or Jackson? God bless…make a name for YOURSELF…do you NATURALLY look like them or others and can make a living as a celebrity look alike…without having risky surgery? more power to ya…
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Della
Guest
In response to the last couple of posts after my last one, I think that if anyone is in doubt about these sorts of issues they should talk to their confessor/spiritual director. He will be able to help sort out motives of the heart for those of us wanting to be buffed and beautiful. 
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j_arden
Guest
I agree with Della. The motive is the only significant moral issue. We can all think of outlandish examples of the dark side of plastic surgery, e.g. Michael Jackson, but most people who get plastic surgery are motivated by lesser or greater forms of vanity. I would guess that most are on the lesser side. I have a relative who got a nose job and breast augmentation–the former to remove a large “lump” on the bridge of her nose and the latter to “correct” what nature and five breast-fed kids will do. She is no more vain than the rest of my family, including me. She just had access to the money and technology. Before anyone jumps all over those who have had “work done,” s/he should read Ecclesiastes and remember that vanity is common and expressed in myriad ways, from doing our hair in the morning to tummy tucks to seeking adoration a la today’s pop stars. Vanity is the motive–if someone has excessive problems with vanity s/he should seek to remedy them for her/his own benefit; if someone has minor problems with vanity, s/he should turn it over to God and not be scrupulous about it–maybe even have a good laugh over it. This is not a black and white issue.
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stellina
Guest
I’ve been getting into arguments lately with my brother over this, as I believe that plastic surgery solely for the sake of “enhancement” is awful. He thinks that it’s just fine and dandy, no different from applying lipstick, & that it’s no sin to work on what God gave you. Please note that these arguments invariably come up only when a woman is the subject, usually some actress or public figure.
You can probably see where I’m going with this. There’s a big difference between plastic surgery done for health reasons & pure vanity, and I emphatically include mental health in this category because people who are born with a disfigurement, e.g. a cleft palate, or who are left with one as a result of an accident or illness, e.g. breast reconsruction after a mastectomy, really do suffer mentally because of the way they look and the way other people react to them. Some actress or model who has her nose bobbed or breasts enlarged to further her ambitions is NOT suffering in this way, no matter what she says. Neither is a middle-aged woman who just cannot accept the fact that she’s no longer 21 and never will be again. These are merely people who can’t accept what God gave them.
I’ll briefly comment on bodybuilding just to be fair (men can be vain too! ): it’s great to do it to be healthy & take care of yourself, but as others have mentioned this can cross the line for the same reason. Working out as a complement to your health & quality of life is a good thing, but spending hour after hour in the gym & pumping yourself full of steroids & other drugs shows that you can’t accept what God gave you & your top priority in life is your looks.
Just for the record, I do wear lipstick & a lot of other makeup, and I enjoy shopping a little too much. I’ll admit it - I struggle with vanity but I try to set limits. Vanity is still one of the seven deadly sins, right?
You can probably see where I’m going with this. There’s a big difference between plastic surgery done for health reasons & pure vanity, and I emphatically include mental health in this category because people who are born with a disfigurement, e.g. a cleft palate, or who are left with one as a result of an accident or illness, e.g. breast reconsruction after a mastectomy, really do suffer mentally because of the way they look and the way other people react to them. Some actress or model who has her nose bobbed or breasts enlarged to further her ambitions is NOT suffering in this way, no matter what she says. Neither is a middle-aged woman who just cannot accept the fact that she’s no longer 21 and never will be again. These are merely people who can’t accept what God gave them.
I’ll briefly comment on bodybuilding just to be fair (men can be vain too!
): it’s great to do it to be healthy & take care of yourself, but as others have mentioned this can cross the line for the same reason. Working out as a complement to your health & quality of life is a good thing, but spending hour after hour in the gym & pumping yourself full of steroids & other drugs shows that you can’t accept what God gave you & your top priority in life is your looks.Just for the record, I do wear lipstick & a lot of other makeup, and I enjoy shopping a little too much. I’ll admit it - I struggle with vanity but I try to set limits. Vanity is still one of the seven deadly sins, right?
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