Could there have been a "pre-Mary"?

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CuriousInIL

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So, my understanding, and please correct me if I am wrong right off the bat here, is that Catholic teaching is that Mary had free will and so could have said “no” to the angel rather than accepting God’s will.

If that is correct, is there anything definitive that can be used to show that, prior to Mary’s 'yes," there was not another woman (either the day before down the block from Mary or 50 years earlier and around the world) - let’s call her “Linda” (L coming before M) who was given the same revelation and choice as Mary but, while Mary said 'yes," Linda said “no.”

I realize that it is unlikely and a rather unusual thought, but my question is not 'Do you think this happened?" my question is whether there is any definitive source/revelation, etc. that one can cite that clearly shows this never happened and Mary was the first and only offered the choice.
 
CuriousInIL said:
So, my understanding, and please correct me if I am wrong right off the bat here, is that Catholic teaching is that Mary had free will and so could have said “no” to the angel rather than accepting God’s will.

If that is correct, is there anything definitive that can be used to show that, prior to Mary’s 'yes," there was not another woman (either the day before down the block from Mary or 50 years earlier and around the world) - let’s call her “Linda” (L coming before M) who was given the same revelation and choice as Mary but, while Mary said 'yes," Linda said “no.”

I realize that it is unlikely and a rather unusual thought, but my question is not 'Do you think this happened?" my question is whether there is any definitive source/revelation, etc. that one can cite that clearly shows this never happened and Mary was the first and only offered the choice.
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It is not unlikely nor unusual.

The answer is: There was a pre-Mary. We call her Eve and her “no” was recorded in Genesis.
 
CuriousInIL said:
Good point.

How about after Eve and before Mary?
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Every person between Eve and Mary said “no” to something, sometime, in their lives.

Edit: I don’t believe anyone else was answering for all of humanity as Eve and Mary did.
 
CuriousInIL said:
Good point.

How about after Eve and before Mary?
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I have wondered this myself. It is an interesting thing to consider. Was anybody before Mary (but after Eve) ‘full of grace,’ but later sinned of their own free will, or said ‘no’ when the Holy Spirit asked her to carry Christ?

As far as I know, the Church teaches that Mary’s preservation from original sin was something unique to her, which implies that there were no ‘pre-Marys,’ but I don’t know for certain if this is definitively taught.

Don’t forget that although we all have free will, God is all-knowing. He knows what we will choose before we choose it, even though he does not force us into any choice. As such, I suspect that God would not give somebody the gift of an immaculate conception without already knowing that 1) they would not commit any personal sins and 2) they would say ‘yes’ when asked to carry His son.

If that is true, then Mary would have been the first and only to be given that grace.

I do enjoy speculating about this though!
 
Since God is outside of time, He knew beforehand that Eve would say “no”, and prepared Mary to say “yes.”

We are in time living out the drama with our free will, and His glorious grace.
 
God is outside of time. I don’t know if we can ever truly comprehend it, but I sometimes visualize all creation, past and future, as one big object. It’s not a changing object, but one whole, all present to God at once. God knew Mary would say yes, but this was of her own volition. God’s omniscience and our free will is hard to wrap the mind around, I know. But essentially, I don’t think there were any past attempts or contingent plans in case Mary said no, because the Future is no further from God than the present or the past. He knew she would cooperate with the grace he gave her.
 
achmafooma said:
I have wondered this myself. It is an interesting thing to consider. Was anybody before Mary (but after Eve) ‘full of grace,’ but later sinned of their own free will, or said ‘no’ when the Holy Spirit asked her to carry Christ?

As far as I know, the Church teaches that Mary’s preservation from original sin was something unique to her, which implies that there were no ‘pre-Marys,’ but I don’t know for certain if this is definitively taught.

Don’t forget that although we all have free will, God is all-knowing. He knows what we will choose before we choose it, even though he does not force us into any choice. As such, I suspect that God would not give somebody the gift of an immaculate conception without already knowing that 1) they would not commit any personal sins and 2) they would say ‘yes’ when asked to carry His son.

If that is true, then Mary would have been the first and only to be given that grace.k

I think that tradition shows that the fight between the good and bad angels may have been about the Incarnation and that’s why Lucifer rebelled. Probably they also had knowledge of Mary. She fulfilled all of the prophecies and remember there is no time as such regarding God. She was immaculate without original sin and other sin so He may have even decided on her right after Adam and Eve’s disobedience. I would have been more worried if she’d have been afraid and said no. So given that she fulfilled all the prophecies, I doubt that there’d be a pre Mary other than Eve, as she was everything Eve was not.

I do enjoy speculating about this though!
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CuriousInIL said:
So, my understanding, and please correct me if I am wrong right off the bat here, is that Catholic teaching is that Mary had free will and so could have said “no” to the angel rather than accepting God’s will.

If that is correct, is there anything definitive that can be used to show that, prior to Mary’s 'yes," there was not another woman (either the day before down the block from Mary or 50 years earlier and around the world) - let’s call her “Linda” (L coming before M) who was given the same revelation and choice as Mary but, while Mary said 'yes," Linda said “no.”

I realize that it is unlikely and a rather unusual thought, but my question is not 'Do you think this happened?" my question is whether there is any definitive source/revelation, etc. that one can cite that clearly shows this never happened and Mary was the first and only offered the choice.
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The same hypothetical could be applied to countless “what ifs” - was there a pre-Earth that made a similar choice as Adam, with a pre-Christ for them?; what if Abraham said no to sacrificing his son?; what if Noah did not build the ark?; etc
 
CuriousInIL said:
So, my understanding, and please correct me if I am wrong right off the bat here, is that Catholic teaching is that Mary had free will and so could have said “no” to the angel rather than accepting God’s will.
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Yes, but free will doesn’t denote any inclination to say no to God.
If that is correct, is there anything definitive that can be used to show that, prior to Mary’s 'yes," there was not another woman (either the day before down the block from Mary or 50 years earlier and around the world) - let’s call her “Linda” (L coming before M) who was given the same revelation and choice as Mary but, while Mary said 'yes," Linda said “no.”
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The geneologies in Luke and Matthew are there to show that, as St. Paul wrote, the Messiah, Jesus, was born “in the fullness of time.” So no, there couldn’t have been a “Linda” 50 years before or on the other side of the world. Mary was born of the House of David at the time in history in which God intended her so she would be the Mother of the Redeemer.
I realize that it is unlikely and a rather unusual thought, but my question is not 'Do you think this happened?" my question is whether there is any definitive source/revelation, etc. that one can cite that clearly shows this never happened and Mary was the first and only offered the choice.
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As I wrote above, the “clues” are right there in Scripture. The people of her time would have understood their significance quite well. As for us, we trust that Christ’s Church knows about all this and understands perfectly well their meaning–that they show who Mary was and what she was in and to Israel. There could have been only one woman chosen to be Jesus’ mother not many. Some Protestants like to think that God would have chosen another woman if Mary had said no, but there is no evidence for this and the whole of Israel’s prophets and history are against such an idea. If Mary had said no, as the Second Eve, she would have denied us Christ, just as Eve denied us saving grace by her disobedience.
 
Della said:
Yes, but free will doesn’t denote any inclination to say no to God.

The geneologies in Luke and Matthew are there to show that, as St. Paul wrote, the Messiah, Jesus, was born “in the fullness of time.” So no, there couldn’t have been a “Linda” 50 years before or on the other side of the world. Mary was born of the House of David at the time in history in which God intended her so she would be the Mother of the Redeemer.

As I wrote above, the “clues” are right there in Scripture. The people of her time would have understood their significance quite well. As for us, we trust that Christ’s Church knows about all this and understands perfectly well their meaning–that they show who Mary was and what she was in and to Israel. There could have been only one woman chosen to be Jesus’ mother not many. Some Protestants like to think that God would have chosen another woman if Mary had said no, but there is no evidence for this and the whole of Israel’s prophets and history are against such an idea. If Mary had said no, as the Second Eve, she would have denied us Christ, just as Eve denied us saving grace by her disobedience.
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In addition to being born without the stain of Original sin, which prepared her to carry the Christ Child in her womb.
She was the only woman ever born so, and thus, worthy.
 
pianistclare said:
In addition to being born without the stain of Original sin, which prepared her to carry the Christ Child in her womb.
She was the only woman ever born so, and thus, worthy.
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What would you cite in support of this?
 
The Immaculate Conception is a dogma of the Catholic Church. It’s Catholic site. I am a Catholic. It’s what I believe. .
 
pianistclare said:
The Immaculate Conception is a dogma of the Catholic Church. It’s Catholic site. I am a Catholic. It’s what I believe. .
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I don’t see anything in Ineffabilis Deus that states that Mary “was the only woman ever born so.” That was the part of your statement for which I seek a citation.

Thanks
 
CuriousInIL said:
What would you cite in support of this?
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All human females (and males) descended from Eve inherited the effects of original sin. Mary, according to the dogma of the Catholic Church was saved from the effects of original sin at the moment of her conception by a singular act of God. Mary was greeted by the Archangel Gabriel not by name, but rather by title: Hail, Full of Grace. I am uaware of any fallen human being saved in that manner or addressed in that manner. So, then, the answer to your question: “Could there have been a “pre-Mary”?” is no.

CuriousInIL, do you have evidence of any other woman saved like that or referred to by angels in such a manner?
 
Another point to consider is that Jesus was born at that particular place and time for a particular reason - to fulfill scripture. If he had been born earlier or later all the other elements surrounding his life, ministry, and death wouldn’t have been in place. The Roman empire had made travel easier in general and so spreading the gospel was much easier than it would have been earlier in history. William Lane Craig had some other points about this which unfortunately I don’t remember now. But all this means that Jesus’ birth pretty much had to take place when and where it did, which means his mother had to be who she is and nobody else.
 
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