S
ScottH
Guest
Mickey said:
But the logic behind it is sound.
“Never mind you get hit in the head- just don’t compain about it to the person that hit you.”
- Status
But the logic behind it is sound.
“Never mind you get hit in the head- just don’t compain about it to the person that hit you.”
M
Mickey
Guest
S
ScottH
Guest
Lets simplify it.
Was Luther wrong to complain about the admitted abuses? Was the reaction to Luther just? (Asking him to recant his reaction to the abuses.)
Thus…
A man was persecuted for realizing the abuse, calling to the church’s attention, and not agreeing to look the other way.
You’d feel extremely alienated too, would you not.
You’ll have to forgive my sarcasm in exchange for my forgiveness for your lack of compassion.
Was Luther wrong to complain about the admitted abuses? Was the reaction to Luther just? (Asking him to recant his reaction to the abuses.)
Thus…
A man was persecuted for realizing the abuse, calling to the church’s attention, and not agreeing to look the other way.
You’d feel extremely alienated too, would you not.
You’ll have to forgive my sarcasm in exchange for my forgiveness for your lack of compassion.
R
Rob_s_Wife
Guest
Michael - not sure what the point of your post was?? No one is arguing that there were no abuses, but that does not mean that indulgencies in their proper use was wrong.
And tnow for our friend Scott, who is having a rather hard time arguing any point at all at this point -
ScottH:
And tnow for our friend Scott, who is having a rather hard time arguing any point at all at this point -
M
Matt16_18
Guest
Rob's Wife:
Norms on Indulgences
[from the Enchiridion of Indulgences issued on 29 June 1968.]
It is not an easy task to reach a state of Christian perfection where one is able to act in perfect charity free from all attachment to sin!
If one’s intentions are good while performing the works of a plenary indulgence, but one is not yet free from all attachment to sin, or able to perform acts of perfect charity, one will gain a partial indulgence. But what happens if one treats indulgences in a superstitious manner? What if someone tried to mechanically perform the requirements for an indulgence without any intention of striving to do these things in a holy manner? Would one gain the remission of the temporal punishment of sins by rotely performing some simple act? No, one would gain nothing by simply going through the motions. In fact, one may be guilty of the sin of blasphemy by treating indulgences as if one is performing a rite of magic.
A mechanical performance of an indulgenced work would not have effect. Performing an indulgenced work should have the consequence of fixing our will away from our sins and entirely on God. This is why among the most important of the conditions for receiving a plenary indulgence, and the hardest to satisfy, is the complete detachment or detestation of our sins. By detesting our sins we orient our will away from creatures (to the degree we love them inordinately), towards God. In this way we open our will to the action of His mercy flowing into our souls, which alone is able to effect the complete remission of the temporal punishment to our sins.
EWTN, What is an Indulgence?
ewtn.com/Devotionals/mercy/what.htm
To gain a plenary indulgence, one not only has to do the works required for the indulgence, one has to do these works in perfect charity, in a state where one is completely free from all attachments to sin. It is further required that all attachment to sin, even venial sin, be absent. If the latter disposition is in any way less than perfect or if the prescribed three conditions are not fulfilled, the indulgence will be partial only …
Norms on Indulgences
[from the Enchiridion of Indulgences issued on 29 June 1968.]
It is not an easy task to reach a state of Christian perfection where one is able to act in perfect charity free from all attachment to sin!
If one’s intentions are good while performing the works of a plenary indulgence, but one is not yet free from all attachment to sin, or able to perform acts of perfect charity, one will gain a partial indulgence. But what happens if one treats indulgences in a superstitious manner? What if someone tried to mechanically perform the requirements for an indulgence without any intention of striving to do these things in a holy manner? Would one gain the remission of the temporal punishment of sins by rotely performing some simple act? No, one would gain nothing by simply going through the motions. In fact, one may be guilty of the sin of blasphemy by treating indulgences as if one is performing a rite of magic.
Yes, accepting what the Church teaches about indulgences is necessary to be a faithful Catholic.… is dogma of the Catholic Faith that the Roman Pontiff is the Vicar of Christ and acts with His authority. Catholics must believe by faith that IF they fulfill the conditions of the Indulgence that they will certainly receive what the Pope has promised, full remission of the temporal punishment due to their forgiven sins.
A mechanical performance of an indulgenced work would not have effect. Performing an indulgenced work should have the consequence of fixing our will away from our sins and entirely on God. This is why among the most important of the conditions for receiving a plenary indulgence, and the hardest to satisfy, is the complete detachment or detestation of our sins. By detesting our sins we orient our will away from creatures (to the degree we love them inordinately), towards God. In this way we open our will to the action of His mercy flowing into our souls, which alone is able to effect the complete remission of the temporal punishment to our sins.
EWTN, What is an Indulgence?
ewtn.com/Devotionals/mercy/what.htm
M
Matt16_18
Guest
Rob's Wife:
… it is not difficult to understand how reconciliation with God, although based on a free and abundant offer of mercy, at the same time implies an arduous process which involves the individual’s personal effort and the Church’s sacramental work. For the forgiveness of sins committed after Baptism, this process is centered on the sacrament of Penance, but it continues after the sacramental celebration. The person must be gradually “healed” of the negative effects which sin has caused in him (what the theological tradition calls the “punishments” and “remains” of sin).
At first sight, to speak of punishment after sacramental forgiveness might seem inconsistent. The Old Testament, however, shows us how normal it is to undergo reparative punishment after forgiveness. God, after describing himself as “a God merciful and gracious … forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin”, adds: “yet not without punishing” (Ex 34:6-7). In the Second Book of Samuel, King David’s humble confession after his grave sin obtains God’s forgiveness (cf. 2 Sm 12:13), but not the prevention of the foretold chastisement (cf. ibid., 12:11; 16:21). God’s fatherly love does not rule out punishment, even if the latter must always be understood as part of a merciful justice that re-establishes the violated order for the sake of man’s own good (cf. Heb 12:4-11).
In this context temporal punishment expresses the condition of suffering of those who, although reconciled with God, are still marked by those “remains” of sin which do not leave them totally open to grace. Precisely for the sake of complete healing, the sinner is called to undertake a journey of conversion towards the fullness of love.
In this process God’s mercy comes to his aid in special ways. The temporal punishment itself serves as “medicine” to the extent that the person allows it to challenge him to undertake his own profound conversion. This is the meaning of the “satisfaction” required in the sacrament of Penance …
Inner conversion is required to benefit from indulgences
… indulgences, far from being a sort of “discount” on the duty of conversion, are instead an aid to its prompt, generous and radical fulfillment. This is required to such an extent that the spiritual condition for receiving a plenary indulgence is the exclusion “of all attachment to sin, even venial sin” (Enchiridion Indulgentiarum, p. 25).
Therefore, it would be a mistake to think that we can receive this gift by simply performing certain outward acts. On the contrary, they are required as the expression and support of our progress in conversion. They particularly show our faith in God’s mercy and in the marvelous reality of communion, which Christ has achieved by indissolubly uniting the Church to himself as his Body and Bride.
INDULGENCES ARE EXPRESSION OF GOD’S MERCY
Pope John Paul II
Pope John Paul ll on indulgences:God forgives but requires satisfaction
… it is not difficult to understand how reconciliation with God, although based on a free and abundant offer of mercy, at the same time implies an arduous process which involves the individual’s personal effort and the Church’s sacramental work. For the forgiveness of sins committed after Baptism, this process is centered on the sacrament of Penance, but it continues after the sacramental celebration. The person must be gradually “healed” of the negative effects which sin has caused in him (what the theological tradition calls the “punishments” and “remains” of sin).
At first sight, to speak of punishment after sacramental forgiveness might seem inconsistent. The Old Testament, however, shows us how normal it is to undergo reparative punishment after forgiveness. God, after describing himself as “a God merciful and gracious … forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin”, adds: “yet not without punishing” (Ex 34:6-7). In the Second Book of Samuel, King David’s humble confession after his grave sin obtains God’s forgiveness (cf. 2 Sm 12:13), but not the prevention of the foretold chastisement (cf. ibid., 12:11; 16:21). God’s fatherly love does not rule out punishment, even if the latter must always be understood as part of a merciful justice that re-establishes the violated order for the sake of man’s own good (cf. Heb 12:4-11).
In this context temporal punishment expresses the condition of suffering of those who, although reconciled with God, are still marked by those “remains” of sin which do not leave them totally open to grace. Precisely for the sake of complete healing, the sinner is called to undertake a journey of conversion towards the fullness of love.
In this process God’s mercy comes to his aid in special ways. The temporal punishment itself serves as “medicine” to the extent that the person allows it to challenge him to undertake his own profound conversion. This is the meaning of the “satisfaction” required in the sacrament of Penance …
Inner conversion is required to benefit from indulgences
… indulgences, far from being a sort of “discount” on the duty of conversion, are instead an aid to its prompt, generous and radical fulfillment. This is required to such an extent that the spiritual condition for receiving a plenary indulgence is the exclusion “of all attachment to sin, even venial sin” (Enchiridion Indulgentiarum, p. 25).
Therefore, it would be a mistake to think that we can receive this gift by simply performing certain outward acts. On the contrary, they are required as the expression and support of our progress in conversion. They particularly show our faith in God’s mercy and in the marvelous reality of communion, which Christ has achieved by indissolubly uniting the Church to himself as his Body and Bride.
INDULGENCES ARE EXPRESSION OF GOD’S MERCY
Pope John Paul II
R
Rob_s_Wife
Guest
Genesis315 that will help with the lesson plans!
Matt16_18 thanks! Yes, that perfect charity part would be no easy thing for anyone! :yup: We are going to strive for it though. We are doing a “baby steps” version of The Introduction to the Devout Life and have high prayers that it will aid us in preparing for this.
Matt16_18 thanks! Yes, that perfect charity part would be no easy thing for anyone! :yup: We are going to strive for it though. We are doing a “baby steps” version of The Introduction to the Devout Life and have high prayers that it will aid us in preparing for this.
M
Matt16_18
Guest
Rob's Wife:
Achieving Christian perfection begins with taking baby steps though the narrow gate. (But don’t ever underestimate the greatness of small things done with great love.) Jesus, You have given me to know and understand in what a soul’s greatness consists: not in great deeds but in great love. Love has its worth, and it confers greatness on all our deeds. Although our actions are small and ordinary in themselves, because of love they become great and powerful before God.
St. Faustina, (Diary 889)
Achieving Christian perfection begins with taking baby steps though the narrow gate. (But don’t ever underestimate the greatness of small things done with great love.) Jesus, You have given me to know and understand in what a soul’s greatness consists: not in great deeds but in great love. Love has its worth, and it confers greatness on all our deeds. Although our actions are small and ordinary in themselves, because of love they become great and powerful before God.
St. Faustina, (Diary 889)
M
Mickey
Guest
Christ promised us that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church. The Catholic Church would have cleansed itself of any sinful deeds. All Luther did was divide the body of Christ into thousands of tiny little pieces.
- Status