Council Canons being violated?

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wifrost

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I’ve been reading some of the Canons of the early Church Councils and am curious if the following things are in violation of a couple of them:

50th Canon of the Council of Elvira:
"If, indeed, someone of the clergy or faithful has taken a meal with Jews, it is determined that as a corrective punishment he is to abstain from communion."

-So is this still in effect? I am pretty sure this has happend especially in the ecumenical movement.

20th Canon of the 1st Council of Nicaea:
"Since there are some who are bending their knee on Sunday and on the days of Pentacost (from Easter to Pentacost), the holy council has decided, so that there will be uniformity of practice in all things in every diocese, that prayers are to be directed to God from a standing position"

-This is really more a question to Catholics…do you kneel in church (and anywhere else) during this period? If so, does this not violate this Canon?

24th Canon of the Council of Laodicea:
"That sacred persons from presbyters to deacons, and one after another through the ecclesiastical rank, from subdeacons to lectors or cantors or exorcists or proters or those of the rank of ascetics are not to enter a tavern."

-Still in effect? I don’t know how many of you know of “Theology on Tap”, but there are plenty of priests, and others from the list, that do go into taverns to preach. I’ve even seen a picture of Fr. Benedict Groschel in one!

Anyway, I’m not meaning to sound like I’m “on the attack,” I’m just on a search for the Church and appreciate anyones comments!

Peace and Blessings,
Ryan
 
Many directives given to the members of the Church during various times and places are restricted to those specific times and places. Since you have not provided any context from whence these quotes came from, it would be totally irresponsible to comment on any of them.

(Since I doubt you found these by extensive study of old Church canons, I would be interested in where you did find them. I don’t doubt your good will [unless you prove otherwise] but I suspect the wrenching of old Church statements from their context and ascribing Catholic inconsistancy to them, smells of an anti-Catholic source. I’d love to be proven wrong. 🙂 )
 
Greetings Fidelis,

I got these from “The Faith of the Early Fathers vol. 1” by William A. Jurgens, who does discuss the writings from a Catholic perspective. I purchased the 3-volume set from a local Catholic bookstore.
 
wifrost said:
I’ve been reading some of the Canons of the early Church Councils and am curious if the following things are in violation of a couple of them:

50th Canon of the Council of Elvira:
"If, indeed, someone of the clergy or faithful has taken a meal with Jews, it is determined that as a corrective punishment he is to abstain from communion."

-So is this still in effect? I am pretty sure this has happend especially in the ecumenical movement.

20th Canon of the 1st Council of Nicaea:
"Since there are some who are bending their knee on Sunday and on the days of Pentacost (from Easter to Pentacost), the holy council has decided, so that there will be uniformity of practice in all things in every diocese, that prayers are to be directed to God from a standing position"

-This is really more a question to Catholics…do you kneel in church (and anywhere else) during this period? If so, does this not violate this Canon?

24th Canon of the Council of Laodicea:
"That sacred persons from presbyters to deacons, and one after another through the ecclesiastical rank, from subdeacons to lectors or cantors or exorcists or proters or those of the rank of ascetics are not to enter a tavern."

-Still in effect? I don’t know how many of you know of “Theology on Tap”, but there are plenty of priests, and others from the list, that do go into taverns to preach. I’ve even seen a picture of Fr. Benedict Groschel in one!

Anyway, I’m not meaning to sound like I’m “on the attack,” I’m just on a search for the Church and appreciate anyones comments!

Peace and Blessings,
Ryan
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These are all disciplinary matters.
The school teaches its pupils how to perform long division.
It also bans pupils under the age of fifteeen from going into the village alone.

A hundred years on, the school is still standing. The rules for long division are likely to be the same, but it is unlikely that the rule about going into the village alone is still in effect. Times change, attitudes to children wandering about unaccompanied change, villages become more or less dangerous places.
 
From what I understand the Councils of Elvira and Laodicea were regional synods and not ecumenical councils. This would prevent their canons from being universally applied.

The canon from the Council of Nicaea, unless I’m mistaken, is the reason why Orthodox and Eastern Catholics don’t kneel during those times. I’m not sure how it came to be that the Roman churches came to kneel during those times.

Now, I could be incorrect on both accounts. Perhaps someone else could verify and, probably, correct what I said.
 
wifrost said:
Greetings Fidelis,

I got these from “The Faith of the Early Fathers vol. 1” by William A. Jurgens, who does discuss the writings from a Catholic perspective. I purchased the 3-volume set from a local Catholic bookstore.
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OK, thanks for proving me wrong! 🙂

In that case, I stick with my original answer: That any directives given to the members of the Church during various times and places are restricted to those specific times and places. Since we don’t readily have any context from whence these quotes came from, it would be totally irresponsible to further comment specifically on any of them. It would all be speculative.
 
I could see that being true with Elvira and Laodicea, but I had issues with it being true with Nicaea 1.

But I did read something from the Catholic Encyclopedia link that said: “…the sovereign pontiff is the most fruitful source of canon law; he can abrogate the laws made by his predecessors or by Ecumenical councils; he can legislate for the whole church or for a part thereof, a country or a given body of individuals…”

If that’s the case, is there anything “official” saying it’s ok to kneel during these time? Would there have to be?
 
wifrost said:
I’ve been reading some of the Canons of the early Church Councils and am curious if the following things are in violation of a couple of them:

50th Canon of the Council of Elvira:
"If, indeed, someone of the clergy or faithful has taken a meal with Jews, it is determined that as a corrective punishment he is to abstain from communion."

-So is this still in effect? I am pretty sure this has happend especially in the ecumenical movement.

20th Canon of the 1st Council of Nicaea:
"Since there are some who are bending their knee on Sunday and on the days of Pentacost (from Easter to Pentacost), the holy council has decided, so that there will be uniformity of practice in all things in every diocese, that prayers are to be directed to God from a standing position"

-This is really more a question to Catholics…do you kneel in church (and anywhere else) during this period? If so, does this not violate this Canon?

24th Canon of the Council of Laodicea:
"That sacred persons from presbyters to deacons, and one after another through the ecclesiastical rank, from subdeacons to lectors or cantors or exorcists or proters or those of the rank of ascetics are not to enter a tavern."

-Still in effect? I don’t know how many of you know of “Theology on Tap”, but there are plenty of priests, and others from the list, that do go into taverns to preach. I’ve even seen a picture of Fr. Benedict Groschel in one!

Anyway, I’m not meaning to sound like I’m “on the attack,” I’m just on a search for the Church and appreciate anyones comments!

Peace and Blessings,
Ryan
Click to expand...
These that you list are “disciplinary canons” NOT doctrinal canons and they have been later changed by the Church.
 
wifrost said:
I could see that being true with Elvira and Laodicea, but I had issues with it being true with Nicaea 1.

But I did read something from the Catholic Encyclopedia link that said: “…the sovereign pontiff is the most fruitful source of canon law; he can abrogate the laws made by his predecessors or by Ecumenical councils; he can legislate for the whole church or for a part thereof, a country or a given body of individuals…”

If that’s the case, is there anything “official” saying it’s ok to kneel during these time? Would there have to be?
Click to expand...
Note that the justification for this canon is “uniformity of practice”. There is thus no theological justification for prefering standing over kneeling, only one of uniformity. It may just be that more and more people knelt, or wanted to kneel, and at some point the very pursuit of uniformity came to weigh in favor of kneeling in the west. Clearly the west had great uniformity of practice until the past 40 or so years, so the stated goal of the canon was not violated.

As an aside, I went to some Masses in a French monastery this past summer, and among the visitors there was perfect uniformity of posture for the Liturgy of the Word, but when it came to the Liturgy of the Eucharist it was like watching a game of whack-a-mole. Some people stood now, others knelt, others sat, others stood then knelt, others knelt then stood. It was pretty sad.
 
wifrost said:
I could see that being true with Elvira and Laodicea, but I had issues with it being true with Nicaea 1.

But I did read something from the Catholic Encyclopedia link that said: “…the sovereign pontiff is the most fruitful source of canon law; he can abrogate the laws made by his predecessors or by Ecumenical councils; he can legislate for the whole church or for a part thereof, a country or a given body of individuals…”

If that’s the case, is there anything “official” saying it’s ok to kneel during these time? Would there have to be?
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No. Customs can become established by popular sentiment. If the bishops don’t make a stand against them, eventually they might become incorporated into the norms of the Church.

For instance strictly, I believe, the Hail Mary should not be said during intercessions. However virtually all parishes do conclude intercessions with the Hail Mary. Eventually it will probably be accepted as a formal part of the Mass.
 
wifrost said:
If that’s the case, is there anything “official” saying it’s ok to kneel during these time? Would there have to be?
Click to expand...
Well, the canon in question clearly addresses a matter of discipline and not doctrine. So, though it is addressed by an Oecumenical Council, it is not irreformable.

The reform progressed organically as the meaning of kneeling changed, from one of abject penance to one of profound worship. The meaning of kneeling, of course, changed as the culture changed, from predominantly Greek to Frankish, Gothic, etc.

The reform progressed as the People of God dwelled upon the great hymn in Philippians 2: “Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

More specifically, the permission, and even the obligation, to kneel was promulgated as part of the Roman Missal, which instructed the faithful to kneel at particular parts, chiefly the Consecration.

Pax,
Deacon Joe
 
Malcolm_McLean said:
…For instance strictly, I believe, the Hail Mary should not be said during intercessions. However virtually all parishes do conclude intercessions with the Hail Mary. Eventually it will probably be accepted as a formal part of the Mass.
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Interesting. I’m a fairly new Catholic so my exposure is quite limited, but I’ve been to Mass in South Florida, Western North Carolina, and Upper and Lower Michigan and have never seen this.

But has been noted, the disciplinary norms of the Church are not doctrinal in nature; they are within the purview of the Bishops to set according to their prudential judgement.
 
*Originally Posted by Malcolm McLean
…For instance strictly, I believe, the Hail Mary should not be said during intercessions. However virtually all parishes do conclude intercessions with the Hail Mary. Eventually it will probably be accepted as a formal part of the Mass. *
Click to expand...
neophyte said:
Interesting. I’m a fairly new Catholic so my exposure is quite limited, but I’ve been to Mass in South Florida, Western North Carolina, and Upper and Lower Michigan and have never seen this.
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I’ve lived in California and Arizona and have never seen this at Mass, either. Must be a regional thang.
 
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