Council of trent/Justification

[ericc]

I grew up the son of a Baptist pastor and am currently going through RCIA. I have numerous friends on all sides of Protestantism telling me why my wife and I planning to join the RCC is a wrong choice. One friend who is a Reformed pastor made the point below:

You could both read the Reformers on WHY they were working towards Reformation. And you could also read the RCC document in reaction to that, the Council of Trent, especially the areas that refer to justification. Ultimately, it boils down to the gospel and whether you believe that Christ finished the work on the cross or didn’t and needed stuff added to it from our good works. I could give you some things to read, but really you have to focus on the gospel/atonement aspects of it all. It’s all of Christ OR it is Christ and…

What answers can I give?

Well, if you think Christ has done everything, why do you have to undergo Baptism. Isn’t that a “work”? One can argue thus I believe, I have faith, I need not do anything else i.e. need not obey that all that Christ commanded that you do, need not baptize, need not repent, need not love your neighbor, need not eat his Body, need not forgive, need not listen to the Church etc. because all these are work. Because you think Christ righteousness would cover up all your sins and one could enter heaven based upon a cover-up, a fraud, a scam? Nothing unclean can enter heaven. How can one think Father/Son/Spirit to jointly participate in such a scheme to sneak an unclean soul into heaven? Preposterous! Absurd behaviour of the God Most High. Rationale says that God will not participate in such a scheme. There is no loop hole to enter heaven. Not only you must appear to be clean, you must truly be clean. And there is a laundry shop that does that, Purgatory.

 

[Christian50]

Hello Fr of Jazz,

CONCLUSION

In the way Adam’s sin AUTOMATICALLY put the human race to the state of mortal sin, in the same way, Christ’s sacrifice on the cross (those who are NOT REJECTING it) AUTOMATICALLY put the human race to the state of grace.
Those who are rejecting the grace of God end up in hell.

The above theological fact and principle is one of the bests demonstration of God’s justice and love.

Hello Fr. of Jazz and everyone,

Correction of my above CONCLUSION: Post No. # 18

In the way Adam’s sin AUTOMATICALLY put the human race to the state of mortal sin, in the same way, Christ’s sacrifice on the cross (those who are not rejecting it) AUTOMATICALLY put the human race to the state of grace.

The above theological fact and principle is one of the bests demonstration of God’s justice and love.

Those who are rejecting the grace of God end up in hell.

God bless.

Christian

 

[Earl_of_Funk]

Well, if you think Christ has done everything, why do you have to undergo Baptism. Isn’t that a “work”? One can argue thus I believe, I have faith, I need not do anything else i.e. need not obey that all that Christ commanded that you do, need not baptize, need not repent, need not love your neighbor, need not eat his Body, need not forgive, need not listen to the Church etc. because all these are work. Because you think Christ righteousness would cover up all your sins and one could enter heaven based upon a cover-up, a fraud, a scam? Nothing unclean can enter heaven. How can one think Father/Son/Spirit to jointly participate in such a scheme to sneak an unclean soul into heaven? Preposterous! Absurd behaviour of the God Most High. Rationale says that God will not participate in such a scheme. There is no loop hole to enter heaven. Not only you must appear to be clean, you must truly be clean. And there is a laundry shop that does that, Purgatory.

Most protestants don’t believe that you need baptism in order to be “saved”. For many of them this is only a symbol of what the Lord has doe for them. This is also the same way many of them view communion/Eucharist.
This comes around to my friends question which many protestants struggle with when looking at Catholicism. When you have spent your whole life thinking of the alone. That all you need is to believe and repent and you will have salvation a church that tells me I need more on top of that is hard to fathom? It is even harder for me to get across how I think it is valid.
I also see that Abraham and Moses and other OT folks were saved by actions along with Faith but that was before the cross so it is somewhat different.

 

[fred_conty]

Originally posted by Earl of Funk
It’s all of Christ OR it is Christ and…

What answers can I give?

When justification is given by God the first time…it is a pure gift from God for there is no way we could earn it from natural human actions. Because we are talking about a Supernatural event.

But after that first justification is given by God, when the three supernatural gifts of faith, hope and charity are also given, then those vitures(powers) must be used to maintain that justification.

So when works are discussed, we must ask ourselves in what time frame are we talking about works…before justification…or after justification.

Before justification, works cannot attain justification because this is first attained only by a gift from God. After justification, works of faith, hope, and charity, must be done to maintain justification.

Psalm-prayer - 34th week in Ordinary Time 2014 of the Divine Office.
“Take our shame away from us, Lord, and make us rejoice in your saving works. May all who have been chosen by your Son always abound in works of faith, hope, and love in your service.”

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

 

[ericc]

Most protestants don’t believe that you need baptism in order to be “saved”. For many of them this is only a symbol of what the Lord has doe for them. This is also the same way many of them view communion/Eucharist.
This comes around to my friends question which many protestants struggle with when looking at Catholicism. When you have spent your whole life thinking of the alone. That all you need is to believe and repent and you will have salvation a church that tells me I need more on top of that is hard to fathom? It is even harder for me to get across how I think it is valid.
I also see that Abraham and Moses and other OT folks were saved by actions along with Faith but that was before the cross so it is somewhat different.

The question is why the cherry picking? Baptism is commanded. Repentance is commanded as well as a few other things. Many of these to-do things are in plain language. From what was clearly a to-do act, there is a tendency to drift to “optional” because one chooses to view it as symbolic. And that is where the danger lies. There are denominations that approve or do not denounce divorce or abortion. Or behaviour that was described as an abomination in the eyes of the Lord is now ok. The democracy practiced in some of the churches could result in God be out-voted. And if you lose this round, there is always a future round of voting where eventually one group eventually allow previously prohibited practices to creep in which once opened, there is no undo button. At the end of the day, is this what you believe in? A self-made religion designed by the masses, for the masses, by the masses?

Some are beginning to realize that this won’t do if one is to stay faithful to Jesus. He transcends all times and generations. His commandments are not meant to be adjusted to go with the times, to be dropped off by a democratic count and if we don’t like a particular reading, let’s just start a new church. That unfortunately, is the reality of a man-made religion.

 

[simspt]

I grew up the son of a Baptist pastor and am currently going through RCIA. I have numerous friends on all sides of Protestantism telling me why my wife and I planning to join the RCC is a wrong choice. One friend who is a Reformed pastor made the point below:

You could both read the Reformers on WHY they were working towards Reformation. And you could also read the RCC document in reaction to that, the Council of Trent, especially the areas that refer to justification. Ultimately, it boils down to the gospel and whether you believe that Christ finished the work on the cross or didn’t and needed stuff added to it from our good works. I could give you some things to read, but really you have to focus on the gospel/atonement aspects of it all. It’s all of Christ OR it is Christ and…

What answers can I give?

The people over at Called to Communion are Reformed turned Catholic and have great articles on their website addressing any question you might have especially from Reformed backgrounds.

calledtocommunion.com/

 

[JRKH]

Earl,
Late coming to this…but just want to offer my experience that one must be very careful and precise when reading Trent. If one does this, one will find that they are very balanced teachings on the matters. Trent was less a reaction or redaction of the reforms going on and more of a “reining in” of the errors that were spiraling out of control at that time.

So when someone tells you that Trent says this or that thing on such and so topic…go and carefully read the document - and the entire document on that topic - for yourself.

Peace
James