Couple of questions from a non catholic pastor...

[pablope]

There really is a large gulf of difference in thinking. My brief time participating in this forum has certainly underscored that for me in very practical ways.

There are many Bible passages that support my points. To avoid a post as long as my arm, I’d like to focus in on Romans chapters 4 and 5. Here we find Paul describing the actions of a loving God, not deluding himself, but, instead, choosing to have Christ’s sacrifice cover our sins. The English translation uses words like “reconciled,” “counted to him as righteousness,” and “being at peace with God” based on faith, not actions, not sacraments. (Ephesians 2:8-9 comes to mind in support of this…) It’s God’s love, not his delusion, that is in play. (Roman’s 5:8) Later in Romans, Paul offers perhaps the simplest description of salvation in 10:9–

.

Hi, Brian…to differentiate the P and C mindset…

Source: vivacatholic.wordpress.com/2009/02/17/infused-righteousness-versus-imputed-righteousness-which-one-entitles-us-to-enter-heaven/

*Imputed righteousness means we use Christ’ righteousness accepted by faith alone to cover our unrighteousness – in other words we do not contribute anything and we are declared righteous. It is like Christ covers our dirty robe (the dirt represents our sins) with his spotless robe and He needs to do it only once. Infused righteousness, on the other hand, means God through Christ helps us to become righteous. Note that the source of righteousness is God, not us, yet the outcome of justification is we become righteous. Using similar analogy of dirty robe representing our sin, in infused righteousness God through Christ helps us to clean our dirty robe. This needs our cooperation and it is an on-going process. Our dirty robe is first washed clean through (Sacrament of) Baptism. Whenever we make it dirty again through sinning, God through Christ helps us to clean it through (Sacrament of) Reconciliation. When we die with our robe still stained with venial sin then purgatory will cleanse it. Imputed righteousness concept cannot go inline with purgatory – purgatory makes what Christ did (covering our dirty robe) insufficient.

Which righteousness entitles us to enter heaven? In Matthew 25:31-46 the sheep are welcomed into heaven while the goats are sent to hell Verse 46 boldly says that the righteous will go to eternal life. Are they declared righteous or made righteous (hence are righteous)? Verses 35 and 36 tell us that they did righteous acts, i.e. they did not use Christ’ righteousness to cover their unrighteousness or to make their unrighteous things appear righteous (before God). 1 John 3:8 defines righteousness as “He who does right is righteous, as he [Christ] is righteous”. Certainly to believe in Christ is one act that leads to righteousness – but it is not the only one. The phrase “He who does right” implies our cooperation. The goats are condemned to hell because they did not do righteous acts or they are not unrighteous (1 Corinthians 6:9). They are not declared unrighteous but they are indeed unrighteous.

The reason why Protestants are against infused righteousness is they view it as work-based justification, in contradiction to their concept of faith alone justification. Catholics do not believe in working on or earning our justification either. God’s Grace always first moves us to do righteous acts, be they believe in Christ, love one another, repenting etc. This means without His Grace we can neither do them nor even have the initiative to do them. Protestants, while insist on justification by faith alone, at the end of the day have to admit that faith that justifies is not alone as what Rev. Sears, quoting from Calvin, wrote below (emphasis added):

Calvin said, “When we say a man is justified by faith alone, we do not fancy a faith devoid of charity, but we mean that faith alone is the cause of justification.” Again Calvin makes this remarkable statement “I wish the reader to understand that as often as we mention Faith alone in this question, we are not thinking of a dead faith, which worketh not by love, but holding faith to be the only cause of justification. It is therefore faith alone which justifies, and yet the faith which justifies is not alone.”*

 

[Denise1957]

These and other verses make it pretty clear that God doesn’t expect us to be perfect before we enter heaven. He didn’t wait for us to achieve some level of internal sanctification before Christ’s death. He didn’t say, “Okay. now they are good enough for me to die for them.” If we must be perfect based on our own righteousness as defined by acts, rites, and sacraments, there is no hope for any of us.

I think I understand what you’re getting at here, and Romans 10:9 does say…“If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” But can it really just be left at that, without taking everything else in Scripture into account? When we confess Jesus as Lord, and believe in the resurrection, we are potentially saved. Potentially. St Thomas Aquinas describes how we can have a proper understanding of things only potentially, while, God, on the other hand, understands everything simultaneously, or actually. I take it to mean, too, that we grow in holiness potentially. Here’s what St. Thomas says about potency:

Chapter 29:

"Since in God nothing is in potency but all is in act, as has been shown, God cannot be intelligent either potentially or habitually but only actually. An evident consequence of this is that He undergoes no succession in understanding. The intellect that understands a number of things successively is able, while actually understanding one thing, to understand another only potentially. But there is no succession among things that exist simultaneously. So, if God understands nothing in potency, His understanding is free from all succession. Accordingly, whatever He understands, He understands simultaneously. Furthermore, He does not ‘begin’ to understand anything. For the intellect that begins to understand something, was previously in potency to understanding.

It is likewise evident that God’s intellect does not understand in discursive fashion, proceeding from one truth to another, as is in the case of our intellect in reasoning. A discursive process of this sort takes place in our intellect in reasoning when we advance from the known to a knowledge of the unknown, or to that which we had previously not actually thought of. Such processes cannot occur in the divine intellect."

Link to article:

dhspriory.org/thomas/Compendium.htm#29

 

[Contarini]

There are many Bible passages that support my points. To avoid a post as long as my arm, I’d like to focus in on Romans chapters 4 and 5. Here we find Paul describing the actions of a loving God, not deluding himself, but, instead, choosing to have Christ’s sacrifice cover our sins. The English translation uses words like “reconciled,” “counted to him as righteousness,”

Yes, but what is “counted to him for righteousness” is his own faith, not Christ’s righteousness! So this doesn’t support the historic Protestant position very well at all.

and “being at peace with God” based on faith, not actions, not sacraments. (Ephesians 2:8-9 comes to mind in support of this…) It’s God’s love, not his delusion, that is in play. (Roman’s 5:8)

Certainly. But wouldn’t you agree that God’s love wants us to be holy? God makes us righteous because He loves us. God’s love is not complacent or indulgent.

These and other verses make it pretty clear that God doesn’t expect us to be perfect before we enter heaven. He didn’t wait for us to achieve some level of internal sanctification before Christ’s death.

This is a very interesting leap you make. You say “before we enter heaven” and then “before Christ’s death” as if these were the same thing. That’s your theological assumption. Why make it? Of course God didn’t wait for us to be holy before He acted to save us. The question is: what does it mean for God to save us? The Catholic tradition (and the Wesleyan and Anabaptist traditions within Protestantism, and for that matter much of the Reformed tradition as well) says that it means that God actually makes us holy. That’s God’s goal for us. Forgiving our past sins is the beginning of the process (a beginning that must often be repeated in this life for most of us with regard to “mortal” sins, and for all of us with regard to “venial” sins). It’s not the sum total of what God wishes for us, which is our sanctification.

Nor is there any reason to believe that God requires a legal “imputation” of Christ’s righteousness before forgiving us, which amounts to say that He can’t really forgive us at all.

He didn’t say, “Okay. now they are good enough for me to die for them.” If we must be perfect based on our own righteousness as defined by acts, rites, and sacraments, there is no hope for any of us.

First of all, the idea that the sacraments have anything to do with “our own righteousness” is utterly alien to both the Catholic and Lutheran traditions. It’s a Reformed/free church straw man. (Well, the Lutherans participate in it in the sense that they argue that Catholics have twisted the sacraments into human actions.)

The sacraments are the means by which God, through the ministry of the Church, offers us His free and unmerited grace.

Scripture supports this approach. One huge problem with many forms of Protestant soteriology is the denial that baptism saves, when a number of passages in Scripture seem to say that it does. You can, of course, explain these passages (and there are certainly passages that can be read to contradict Catholic teaching and which Catholics need to explain, so this isn’t a conclusive argument for one side over the other). But you only need to because you assume that baptism is a “work” of the kind Paul says can’t save. You can make much better sense of the NT evidence if you accept that baptism is not regarded in Scripture as a “work of the law” at all! Neither, for that matter, is repentance. Repentance, faith, and baptism are all mentioned in the NT as conditions for salvation. The most reasonable approach, then, is to say that whatever Paul means by salvation “without works,” it can’t mean without those three things–none of them are “works” in the sense he’s talking about.

Edwin

 

[PJM]

Wow very eloquently said… Vary true. if you don’t mind I am writing that one down

I read this and it so so awesome , thanks for showing me the path in Scripture my friend.

I see the difference of Catholics is this. Your Faith is a Journey and isn’t to be taken lightly.There is a path that is somewhat similar to kids going to School you don’t just go from PreK to College and then the real world. I feel that many Christians in the Protestant faith end up coming to Christ (a good thing) and get baptized and are somewhat led to be told ok your a Christian so Go be a Christian and Good luck. My 11 year old is in Catechism Classes thanks to his Grand ma and my wife who although is really involved in our little non denom church still wants him to partake in the Catechism like she did growing up, she is a somewhat strayed away catholic, anyways atleast his is receiving some great fundamentals and I feel he is better equipped to handle questions and doubts far better than I at his age. Sorry if I am rambling.

May God who love you continue to inspire and guide you:thumbsup:

Awesome BLOG! Well done.

Check out mine if you want further information on what we Catholics believe. I’m not a computer wizz, but there is really solid teachin there.

Love and prayers,
Pat

Oh check out my Blog its pretty Transparent, I don’t sugar coat anything about my struggles in life and my newly found walk with the lord. http://www.coming2christ.blogspot.com

 

[manualman]

BrianGular,

I just can’t see your your description amounts to anything less than God deluding himself about what we’ve done and what we are, regardless of how you phrase it. And if still sinful, imperfect humans are allowed to enter heaven, how can it be heaven?

If you and I enter as is, we will introduce selfishness, insensitivity, greed, lust, envy… That ain’t right. As a catholic, I take joy in knowing that I have the hope of one day being perfected by Grace. I won’t be a “dung heap covered by pure white snow” (allegedly Luther’s description though I’ve failed to find citation), I will by then have been fully transformed and renewed so that no ‘dung’ remains!

Frankly, the heaven you describe doesn’t sound very heavenly. Doesn’t that bother you? If it ever does, you now know where to go lookin’

 

[jmoneyideas]

BrianGular,

I just can’t see your your description amounts to anything less than God deluding himself about what we’ve done and what we are, regardless of how you phrase it. And if still sinful, imperfect humans are allowed to enter heaven, how can it be heaven?

If you and I enter as is, we will introduce selfishness, insensitivity, greed, lust, envy… That ain’t right. As a catholic, I take joy in knowing that I have the hope of one day being perfected by Grace. I won’t be a “dung heap covered by pure white snow” (allegedly Luther’s description though I’ve failed to find citation), I will by then have been fully transformed and renewed so that no ‘dung’ remains!

Frankly, the heaven you describe doesn’t sound very heavenly. Doesn’t that bother you? If it ever does, you now know where to go lookin’

That is one of the better ways to describe it that I have heard on the Forum. This is the reason why I have started my path to becoming Catholic. Thanks for the post very very very clear cut in my opinion.

 

[jmoneyideas]

May God who love you continue to inspire and guide you:thumbsup:

Awesome BLOG! Well done.

Check out mine if you want further information on what we Catholics believe. I’m not a computer wizz, but there is really solid teachin there.

Love and prayers,
Pat

Oh check out my Blog its pretty Transparent, I don’t sugar coat anything about my struggles in life and my newly found walk with the lord. http://www.coming2christ.blogspot.com

Pat Great Blog…When I get home tonight I will be diving in and reading. You all are helping me learn so much and it is so appreciated. My spongy brain is working on overdrive.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Wow very eloquently said… Vary true. if you don’t mind I am writing that one down

I would be honored.

Good luck on your journey.

Peace,
Robert