T
ThuriferAcolyte
Guest
I have been having a nice discussion with a few Mormons over on their apologetics board about the “mainstream” Christian understanding of Christ. This discussion then evolved into the Trinity, consubstantiality, and creation. 
Now, if anyone is familiar with Mormons, they believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one in purpose, will, and intent, however they are not one in substance. I have explained the Catholic view as this: the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are separate, distinct Persons. However, they are also on in substance, in that they all are fully that which makes them Divine. Is this correct? From what I have read, it is, but I’d like to make sure. The discussion then evolved into what “consubstantial” means. Now, I have seen in many places that because Jesus Christ became human, He is not only consubstantial with the Father and the Holy Spirit, but also consubstantial with us. Is this correct? If so, are we also consubstantial with each other as humans? What I’m asking is, what are some good resources that fully define consubstantiality.
I made up this analogy (adapted from one that exists, but has been said to be faulty): Imagine a table where there is a bowl and a cup. In the bowl, there is ice. In the cup, there is water. in the air, there is vapor. This is a closed system, so there is no changing between states, since it is at equilibrium. Therefore, the water, ice and vapor are clearly separate and distinct. Yet, they are the same substance. That substance is H2O. The arrangement of the molecules may be different in each, but they are still H2O. A Mormon then said this was wrong, because in his understanding of consubstantiality, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all wearing the same shirt (substance). They aren’t wearing the same shirts, they are both under the same shirt.
Then we discussed creation. Of course we believe in creation ex nihilo. Mormons believe that God “organized” the universe out of pre-existing matter. They cite such verses as this:
Ecc 12: 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made
Isaiah 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
What does Genesis mean when this is said:
Genesis 1
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
What are the “waters” and the “face of the deep”?
Finally, I was browsing a discussion of Jesus being God of the Old Testament. Now, LDS do not believe in the Trinity, as they believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not one in substance. They believe that Jesus organized the universe, at the direction of the Father, and that He was the God of the Old Testament. They cite such verses as this:
Exodus 3:13-15
13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name what shall I say unto them?
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations
John 8:
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
They therefore say that Jesus was/is Jehovah of the OT. How do we understand this?
Interestingly, I’ve never had any problems debating with Mormons, yet these above issues are a little more difficult for me. Any help is appreciated!
Now, if anyone is familiar with Mormons, they believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one in purpose, will, and intent, however they are not one in substance. I have explained the Catholic view as this: the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are separate, distinct Persons. However, they are also on in substance, in that they all are fully that which makes them Divine. Is this correct? From what I have read, it is, but I’d like to make sure. The discussion then evolved into what “consubstantial” means. Now, I have seen in many places that because Jesus Christ became human, He is not only consubstantial with the Father and the Holy Spirit, but also consubstantial with us. Is this correct? If so, are we also consubstantial with each other as humans? What I’m asking is, what are some good resources that fully define consubstantiality.
I made up this analogy (adapted from one that exists, but has been said to be faulty): Imagine a table where there is a bowl and a cup. In the bowl, there is ice. In the cup, there is water. in the air, there is vapor. This is a closed system, so there is no changing between states, since it is at equilibrium. Therefore, the water, ice and vapor are clearly separate and distinct. Yet, they are the same substance. That substance is H2O. The arrangement of the molecules may be different in each, but they are still H2O. A Mormon then said this was wrong, because in his understanding of consubstantiality, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all wearing the same shirt (substance). They aren’t wearing the same shirts, they are both under the same shirt.
Then we discussed creation. Of course we believe in creation ex nihilo. Mormons believe that God “organized” the universe out of pre-existing matter. They cite such verses as this:
Ecc 12: 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made
Isaiah 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
What does Genesis mean when this is said:
Genesis 1
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
What are the “waters” and the “face of the deep”?
Finally, I was browsing a discussion of Jesus being God of the Old Testament. Now, LDS do not believe in the Trinity, as they believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not one in substance. They believe that Jesus organized the universe, at the direction of the Father, and that He was the God of the Old Testament. They cite such verses as this:
Exodus 3:13-15
13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name what shall I say unto them?
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations
John 8:
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
They therefore say that Jesus was/is Jehovah of the OT. How do we understand this?
Interestingly, I’ve never had any problems debating with Mormons, yet these above issues are a little more difficult for me. Any help is appreciated!