Crimes commited by the Church

[roelblomsma]

Hi there,

I’ve a hard time explaining non-Catholic friends why the Church has a ‘weak’ possition as it comes to crimes commited by members of the Clergy. I mean, why do they move convicted priests to other places and hide them, in stead of punishing them? Why do they not expell them? If the Church is spiritually and morally the highest organization, how come these corruptions, both from a legal and a moral point of view, take place? What am I to make of the possition of a priest if it seems there are bad priests among the clergy. I hope I can get some good answers, because I still have to get back with them to my friends. tnx!

 

[Ridgerunner]

Hi there,

I’ve a hard time explaining non-Catholic friends why the Church has a ‘weak’ possition as it comes to crimes commited by members of the Clergy. I mean, why do they move convicted priests to other places and hide them, in stead of punishing them? Why do they not expell them? If the Church is spiritually and morally the highest organization, how come these corruptions, both from a legal and a moral point of view, take place? What am I to make of the possition of a priest if it seems there are bad priests among the clergy. I hope I can get some good answers, because I still have to get back with them to my friends. tnx!

I think it would be incorrect to say the Church has a “weak” position presently. It’s very attuned to such things now.

I’m not sure the Church (or bishops, actually) really were trying to “hide” offending priests. If you look at most of those cases, it seems to me it was more a matter of bishops “buying into” what were then considered “modern” psychological notions. Sometimes it wasn’t even the bishops, but chancery people who thought somehow the offenders could be “cured” by sending them to shrinks. Turns out it didn’t work, and the offenders came back just as twisted as when they went.

Now, of course, things like pedophilia are not considered “curable”. The psych community changed its mind about that. But one might legitimately ask why in the world bishops or chancery people bought into psychology as a means of correcting what were really moral faults that the perpetrators had no intention of changing. One might conclude (and I’m inclined to conclude) that for a time in the Church there really was too much “secularization”; too much borrowing from the secular world when the teachings of the Church would have set them on a better course.

It does seem to me that the Church has undertaken to right the boat, so to speak. There have been significant changes in seminaries, for example, and most of the bishops now being appointed are moral in their orientation rather than oriented to secular notions.

 

[xebec775]

I think the biggest problem in dealing with cases of child molestation, regardless of the institute involved, is the government controlled legal system. Like… if I were a manager of a company and one of my employees was accused of, lets say, selling drugs while on the clock, that employee is (rightfully) innocent until proven guilty. Now, if I were to fire that employee during the course of investigation for those crimes and he/she were to be acquited or have charges dropped, it is possible that I just ruined the livelyhood of an innocent person.

So, if I were a bishop and rumors were circulating about the actions of a certain priest who have no formal criminal charges brought up against them, or have their charges dropped, what should I do?

Of course, this is just my opinion and I have no interest in defending the actions of child molestors regardless of their profession.

 

[PAboy57]

the Catholic Church in the USA is now probably the safest place for children. All the changes made over the past 10 years are working.

There are many other professions that have had more problems. It seems when it is the Catholic Church there is much more press.

Do some internet searching for the statistics.

 

[lizaanne]

Crimes commited by the Church

Be very very clear - the Church has committed NO crimes. The Church is the Bride of Christ, and can not be in error, nor can she commit crimes.

Men - sinful human men - have committed crimes. And imperfect men have failed to address the issues appropriately at the time the crimes occurred.

But the Church is ever perfect. Be sure to understand clearly the distinction, it is very important, and especially when people use the sex abuse scandal as an excuse for leaving the Church. The Faith and the fullness of Truth within the Catholic Church is ever perfect. Men never will be, this side of heaven.

~Liza

 

[PAboy57]

Be very very clear - the Church has committed NO crimes. The Church is the Bride of Christ, and can not be in error, nor can she commit crimes.

Men - sinful human men - have committed crimes. And imperfect men have failed to address the issues appropriately at the time the crimes occurred.

But the Church is ever perfect. Be sure to understand clearly the distinction, it is very important, and especially when people use the sex abuse scandal as an excuse for leaving the Church. The Faith and the fullness of Truth within the Catholic Church is ever perfect. Men never will be, this side of heaven.

~Liza

thank you as that was my intention. Church very holy. Some men bad.

 

[roelblomsma]

I think it would be incorrect to say the Church has a “weak” position presently. It’s very attuned to such things now.

I’m not sure the Church (or bishops, actually) really were trying to “hide” offending priests. If you look at most of those cases, it seems to me it was more a matter of bishops “buying into” what were then considered “modern” psychological notions. Sometimes it wasn’t even the bishops, but chancery people who thought somehow the offenders could be “cured” by sending them to shrinks. Turns out it didn’t work, and the offenders came back just as twisted as when they went.

Now, of course, things like pedophilia are not considered “curable”. The psych community changed its mind about that. But one might legitimately ask why in the world bishops or chancery people bought into psychology as a means of correcting what were really moral faults that the perpetrators had no intention of changing. One might conclude (and I’m inclined to conclude) that for a time in the Church there really was too much “secularization”; too much borrowing from the secular world when the teachings of the Church would have set them on a better course.

It does seem to me that the Church has undertaken to right the boat, so to speak. There have been significant changes in seminaries, for example, and most of the bishops now being appointed are moral in their orientation rather than oriented to secular notions.

Well, I do agree that psychologists have no business as it comes to these matters. But I’m still not able to convince people about the possition of the Church and my stand points as it comes to crimes committed by church members. It’s as when a police officier commits a crime. I also would agree that that would look a bit nasty. So as someone who preaches chastity and purity, commits such a crime, that’s really bad. Why doesn’t the Church expel them openly.

 

[roelblomsma]

I think the biggest problem in dealing with cases of child molestation, regardless of the institute involved, is the government controlled legal system. Like… if I were a manager of a company and one of my employees was accused of, lets say, selling drugs while on the clock, that employee is (rightfully) innocent until proven guilty. Now, if I were to fire that employee during the course of investigation for those crimes and he/she were to be acquited or have charges dropped, it is possible that I just ruined the livelyhood of an innocent person.

So, if I were a bishop and rumors were circulating about the actions of a certain priest who have no formal criminal charges brought up against them, or have their charges dropped, what should I do?

Of course, this is just my opinion and I have no interest in defending the actions of child molestors regardless of their profession.

Ok, sure. That seems like a good answer. Nevertheless, I think there have been many cases in which the Church consciently (as in knowing that a priest commited those crimes) chose to avoid further problems by moving priests to other places. Why would they do so?

 

[roelblomsma]

the Catholic Church in the USA is now probably the safest place for children. All the changes made over the past 10 years are working.

There are many other professions that have had more problems. It seems when it is the Catholic Church there is much more press.

Do some internet searching for the statistics.

Yeah, I agree. Like if a male teacher would do harm, nobody would claim that the whole educational system is bad, but if one priest does so, then everybody considers the whole Church as evil.

Could you tell me about the ‘changes’ made 10 years ago? Like on what level, etc.?

 

[roelblomsma]

Be very very clear - the Church has committed NO crimes. The Church is the Bride of Christ, and can not be in error, nor can she commit crimes.

Men - sinful human men - have committed crimes. And imperfect men have failed to address the issues appropriately at the time the crimes occurred.

But the Church is ever perfect. Be sure to understand clearly the distinction, it is very important, and especially when people use the sex abuse scandal as an excuse for leaving the Church. The Faith and the fullness of Truth within the Catholic Church is ever perfect. Men never will be, this side of heaven.

~Liza

Ok, cool! Yeah, that seems like a good answer. But then. Why are there bad men representing the Church? How can I detach them from the Church in my arguments to defend the Church? I mean, I get the part of seperating Faith and the administration of the clergy, but it’s still hard to see how I should conceive the possition of a priest in general. I understood though the Catecism that a priest is someone you should honour, but through all that has happened I must say I would be a bit reluctant to send my kids to a Catholic boy school for example. Thanks!

 

[lizaanne]

Ok, cool! Yeah, that seems like a good answer. But then. Why are there bad men representing the Church? How can I detach them from the Church in my arguments to defend the Church? I mean, I get the part of seperating Faith and the administration of the clergy, but it’s still hard to see how I should conceive the possition of a priest in general. I understood though the Catecism that a priest is someone you should honour, but through all that has happened I must say I would be a bit reluctant to send my kids to a Catholic boy school for example. Thanks!

Because by that logic you would never send children to go anywhere with anyone to do anything. This sort of abuse happens all over the place, not only by (some few) Catholic priests. Go out and look at the statistics regarding the incidents of abuse by daycare workers, school teachers, Protestant ministers, troop leaders, on and on and on. The reason the scandal is as large as it is, is only because the media has made it so. They make it appear that a predator priest is awaiting around every corner, which is simply not true in any sense of the word.

You detach them by being realistic and not being led into paranoia by the media.

~Liza

 

[JonNC]

the Catholic Church in the USA is now probably the safest place for children. All the changes made over the past 10 years are working.

For example, there is a priest in east Tennessee, pled guilty, convicted, no longer a priest, and I believe prison time is pending.

Jon

 

[catholic-rcia]

Be very very clear - the Church has committed NO crimes. The Church is the Bride of Christ, and can not be in error, nor can she commit crimes.

Men - sinful human men - have committed crimes. And imperfect men have failed to address the issues appropriately at the time the crimes occurred.

But the Church is ever perfect. Be sure to understand clearly the distinction, it is very important, and especially when people use the sex abuse scandal as an excuse for leaving the Church. The Faith and the fullness of Truth within the Catholic Church is ever perfect. Men never will be, this side of heaven.

~Liza

I want to say thanks.
Until Christ Himself commits something like this I will remain Catholic. I was baptised 12 years ago. The Parable that stands out for me is:

Matthew 13:24-30
24 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. 27 And the servants of the householder came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then has it weeds?’ 28 He said to them, An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him, Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ 29 But he said, `No; lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’”

This is how I percieve my own faith. I myself have good and bad in me. The Church helps me with this battle daily. If you asked me to join a perfect Church here on earth I would have to decline. The reality is we are all sinners in transition. I Love the Catholic faith that I have discovered. Pray for all, Love all and forgive often.

 

[pipper]

Because by that logic you would never send children to go anywhere with anyone to do anything. This sort of abuse happens all over the place, not only by (some few) Catholic priests. Go out and look at the statistics regarding the incidents of abuse by daycare workers, school teachers, Protestant ministers, troop leaders, on and on and on. The reason the scandal is as large as it is, is only because the media has made it so. They make it appear that a predator priest is awaiting around every corner, which is simply not true in any sense of the word.

You detach them by being realistic and not being led into paranoia by the media.

~Liza

I think we can blame the media for a large part of this. They always go after us and our clergy. But others seem to get a free pass.

I remember an incident in particular. About 10 years ago their was a Protestant youth minister who flew to Las Vegas with a 12 year old girl he “was in love with” they were brought back and the whole thing dissapeared and it only made the paper in that city once, no-where else. He was not prosecuted.

But had priest done that all hell would have broken loose, as well it should.

Why the difference? Is becuase the preacher was a member of a large popular denomination in the south? I truly beleive that to be true.

One other thing. There is a difference between homosexualty and pedophilia, and the vast majority of pedophiles are heterosexaul. Getting rid of homosexual priests will not solve the problem.

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

You’ve taken some steps forward, everyone from clergy to church volunteer is presumptively unfit to serve in any capacity if it involves children until vetted by a background check.

 

[Windfish]

Hi there,

I’ve a hard time explaining non-Catholic friends why the Church has a ‘weak’ possition as it comes to crimes commited by members of the Clergy. I mean, why do they move convicted priests to other places and hide them, in stead of punishing them? Why do they not expell them? If the Church is spiritually and morally the highest organization, how come these corruptions, both from a legal and a moral point of view, take place? What am I to make of the possition of a priest if it seems there are bad priests among the clergy. I hope I can get some good answers, because I still have to get back with them to my friends. tnx!

Can you give me a specific example of this kind of thing? I often hear this from people as an assertion that everyone accepts as true, but can you give me an example where a priest was specifically moved to avoid the authorities? I cannot imagine anyone doing that. I can imagine naive and incompetent people doing something stupid, especially a few decades ago when the the problem of pedophilia was not understood, but I think it’s a stretch that this was the intention.

 

[AntiTheist]

Can you give me a specific example of this kind of thing? I often hear this from people as an assertion that everyone accepts as true, but can you give me an example where a priest was specifically moved to avoid the authorities? I cannot imagine anyone doing that. I can imagine naive and incompetent people doing something stupid, especially a few decades ago when the the problem of pedophilia was not understood, but I think it’s a stretch that this was the intention.

You might start your investigations with a search of news articles: boston.com/news/world/latinamerica/articles/2010/04/15/predator_priests_were_shuffled_around_globe_investigation_finds/

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

Can you give me a specific example of this kind of thing? I often hear this from people as an assertion that everyone accepts as true, but can you give me an example where a priest was specifically moved to avoid the authorities? I cannot imagine anyone doing that. I can imagine naive and incompetent people doing something stupid, especially a few decades ago when the the problem of pedophilia was not understood, but I think it’s a stretch that this was the intention.

[Updated]

 

[roelblomsma]

I want to say thanks.
Until Christ Himself commits something like this I will remain Catholic. I was baptised 12 years ago. The Parable that stands out for me is:

Matthew 13:24-30
24 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. 27 And the servants of the householder came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then has it weeds?’ 28 He said to them, An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him, Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ 29 But he said, `No; lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’”

This is how I percieve my own faith. I myself have good and bad in me. The Church helps me with this battle daily. If you asked me to join a perfect Church here on earth I would have to decline. The reality is we are all sinners in transition. I Love the Catholic faith that I have discovered. Pray for all, Love all and forgive often.

Very nice parabole indeed. I do belief that that should be our view on life. Nevertheless, if something injust happens. Should we turn our heads and let it happen, or should we speak out. Are we responsible only for ourselves or do we also have the obligation to contribute to improve humanity. I believe the latter is true. Thus, should we be silent when a priest commits a crime. Or should we openly accuse him. I believe in the latter, because I guess the Church clergy should be the wheat. The salt of the earth. After all they represent the bride of God.

 

[roelblomsma]

Can you give me a specific example of this kind of thing? I often hear this from people as an assertion that everyone accepts as true, but can you give me an example where a priest was specifically moved to avoid the authorities? I cannot imagine anyone doing that. I can imagine naive and incompetent people doing something stupid, especially a few decades ago when the the problem of pedophilia was not understood, but I think it’s a stretch that this was the intention.

Well, there are many specific cases, such as the boyschools in Ireland. But also in Holland and Belgium former victims are speaking out and cardinals and bisshops have admitted that they knew about cases and that they acted according to ‘church-law’ and thus moved the priests to other places. If you want I can look up names and places. I think there are complete websites dedicated to this found through Google.

Furthermore, if we go back in history, we see a line of crimes commited by clergy members of the Church. I mean, why were Galileo and Copernicus declared herretics and punished? Why were thousands if not hunders of thousands of women burned alive on the stake as witches? Why were indians in South America killed, tortured and inslaved in the name of God?

Another point is that in the Catholic Church we talk about a line of Popes from Saint Peter to now. But in the line of Popes, there were those that approved and even ordered those atrocious crimes.

You see how people can form an idea of the Catholic Church?
Thanks.