Critical Evaluation of Watchtower's New Book

[jschwehm]

Hi Gang:

Thanks to Dave Brown and the (name removed by moderator)ut of others we have an internet site that helps respond to the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ brand new book (released at their conventions this summer) entitled “What Does the Bible Really Teach?” from a Catholic Christian perspective.

We have responses to the first 4 chapters of the book so far. Here is the link to the site:

www.catholic-forum.com/members/popestleo/bibleteach.html

Jeff Schwehm
www.catholicxjw.com

 

[somoreno]

This is great, It really helps me. I am trying to witneww to the witnesses, but as a mother of three young children, I don’t have a lot of time to do independent research. You relly help me out.

Maybe with resources like this, others will feel more confident encouraging JW’s to look for the real truth

Thanks a million!!

 

[somoreno]

OK…

We started in.

I lodged a notice of objection (“my” JW Cathy and I have been around a lot of circles and are pretty familiar with each others beliefs.) to the mention on page 7 of the “66” books of the bible. We discussed the septuigint (SP?) and I mentioned that I thought Jesus quoted from the “apocryphal” books, and that they were in the septuigent (which we both agree He used,) and in the original edition of the King James, but that it was Martin Luther that took them out.

She said she didn’t know wether or not they were in the septuigint, but that that should be easy to verify (I did, and they were…got it for her next time). She said she would REALLY be interested in seeing if Jesus quoted from them. I have found several lists of reference, but the language thing makes them look to me to be only similar…not demonstrably quoting (would appreciate help here). And, me research indicated they were in the Kind James, but as an appendix at the back (again would appreciate help…)

Perhaps more interestingly, we got hung up ion paragraphs 12 and 13. When I see that quote about being made in His image, I immediately go to the theology of the body, and the implication of the trininty in the statement that follows, male and female he created them…So we got into a big discussion of eros and agape and Gods intention for our sexuality, and how perverse our view is today. Really, I think we can barely discern Gods purpose for eros these days…so that was interesting.

Then in the next paragraph, it talks about God is Love. after clarifying that God shows us mercy and compassion, and meets (sp?) out justice, but that he IS love. And acknowledging that love requires a lover and a beloved, I asked how then did he exist before creation…which we agree he did.

She sort of glossed over this, but hopefully, it will recurr to her. that was as far as we got. So I have a couple of weeks (she can’t make it next week) to revies and polish up the NAME thing. I have read apparently conflicting sources, some that say the tetragram YHWH is never used in the NT and was erroneously placed there by the JW’s in the NWT and others that say it was used, particularly where is says “no one can say Jesus is LORD (YHWH) except with the help of the Holy Spirit.” Could use a clear discussion of this…

for what it’s worth…

 

[At_His_Feet]

somoreno - to comment on just a couple of things:

The Deuterocanonicals: (what the JWs call “apocryphal”)- there is a good article here on them by Jimmy Akin cin.org/users/james/files/deuteros.htm

Yes they were in the KJV. Whether their position in the KJV (and they were in there) was in an appendix in the KJV seems relatively insignificant.

The JWs are right to point out one thing - that the absence of YHWH from any texts of the New Testament is very, very noteworthy. It seems to me that there are two responses to this fact; accept it and try to undersatand it’s significance, or (as the JWs do) say “well it ought to be in there” and then come up with reasons to put it in there. Which of these two attitudes shows more reverence? If God had intended for YHWH to be in the manuscripts of the NT could He not have worked things out so that it was? (The JWs allege that a conspiracy occured in the 2nd C. to wipe out the name - the same generation of Christians that were willing to suffer violent martyrdom for the Gospel). .

The name that is emphasized over and over again in the NT is that of Jesus. Here are three siginificant texts, but there are many more:

**Acts 4:12 **There is no salvation through anyone else, nor is there any other name under heaven given to the human race by which we are to be saved."

Collosians 3:17 And whatever you do, in word or in deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

Phillipians 2:9,10 Because of this, God greatly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

(the verse in Phillipians 2:9-10 uses the same language as Isaiah 45:23, but notice that in that verse it is YHWH speaking)

Isaiah 45:18, 23 Thus says YHWH… To me every knee shall bend; by me every tongue shall swear

The response to ch. 1 of the Bible Teach book at this website has very good information on the question of YHWH in the New Testament: catholic-forum.com/members/popestleo/bibleteach1.html

This book; “The Divine Name in the New World Translation”, downloadable for free or available cheap in hard copy, goes into it all and is very good, IMO;
tetragrammaton.org/itmdnnwt.htm

In the above book, in chapters 8, 9, and 10, he analyzes what really would have had to happen in order for YHWH to originally have been, but later forged out of, the New Testament. His arguments are very convincing:
tetragrammaton.org/divname.htm#chapter8
tetragrammaton.org/divname.htm#chapter9
tetragrammaton.org/divname.htm#chapter10

The same website has a synopsis of what they consider to be the main issues here:
tetragrammaton.org/issue.html

And I would advise you caution on something else, som - contact w/ the JWs involves more than just “doctrines” or “beliefs”, although they would like to say that it’s just about beliefs; there are emotional and psychological issues involved which the individual JWs themselves don’t fully understand. Be careful, and God bless.

 

[somoreno]

Thank you for your comments and advice.

I am beginning to understand the emotional type of issues involved. I have been reading some conversion stories from JW to Catholicism and can see it takes a very strong person to break loose not only of the doctines, but of the community.

My friend Cathy appears to me to be really stuck. She has not said anything like this to me. She has told me that her husband is being “groomed” for higher things in the organization. I can only imagine what would happen to her life should she choose to leave the witnesses.

I am firmly Catholic. Surrounded by educated forthright intelligent practicing conservative Catholics. (I have two sisters and a brother, their spouses, and 15 neices and nephews within a mile of me) Trying not to be overconfident. I feel safe in my faith, and have really found that the study required of me to speak to the JW’s has deepended and confirmed my faith.

Nor am I unrealistic. I doubt that Cathy will one day say, “hey, you’re right, I’ve gotta become Catholic.” I sometimes wonder given that understanding if I’m not harming her chance for eternal salvation by exposing her to a truth that I am fairly certain she will reject…If she didn’t know, she could plead ignorance. I know that’s no reason not to share the truth.

I’m just in the middle of this thing. I don’t know where it’s going to go, but I know I will remain in God’s church, and he knows the rest…

Thanks for your help

Sally