Critics of Papal Infallibility: Can you name other examples of popes making fallible decisions apart from Honorius I?

[Outback04]

Since we’re quoting folks tonight:

Why have I wanted to make this little introduction? In order to suggest to you that in Peter the Church is to be recognized. Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter’s confession. What is Peter’s confession? ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ There’s the rock for you, there’s the foundation, there’s where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer–St. Augustine of Hippo…John Rotelle, O.S.A., Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Volume III/6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327.

Shortly afterward, after these words of his in which he approved of Peter’s faith and showed that it (his faith )was the rock, he began there and then to show his disciples that it would be necessary for him to come to Jerusalem, and suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and the scribes and the priests, and be killed, and on the third day rise again.—St. Augustine of Hippo…John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Volume III/5, Sermon 183.14, p. 343.

and here’s a classic…

Peter then was true; or rather was Christ true in Peter? Now when the Lord Jesus Christ would, He abandoned Peter, and Peter was found a man; but when it so pleased the Lord Jesus Christ, He filled Peter, and Peter was found true. The Rock (Petra) made Peter true, for the Rock was Christ.—St. Augustine of Hippo…8A Library of the Fathers of the Holy Catholic Church (Oxford: Parker, 1845), Volume 20, Sermon 97.3, p. 686, (Sermon 147, Benedictine Edition).

We know what rock is; and yet a hard and obstinate person is called a rock, and a solid, immovable person is called rock. In praise you take the rock’s solidity, in blame you take its hardness. We know the solidity of the rock, and we accept Christ as the rock: Now the rock was Christ (1 Cor. 10:4)–St. Augustine of Hippo, 21John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (Brooklyn: New City, 1990), Sermons, Volume III/1, Sermon 4.22, p. 197.

Great material!

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I beg to differ, the middle ages begin with the death of St. Augustine bishop of Hippo, and the fall of the Roman Empire. Pope Leo “The Great” enters the scene to fend off Attila the Hun by his mere presence with St. Peter and St. Paul standing beside him posing a threatening sign to Attila that this Conquerer did not sack Rome out of fear of meeting a True Pope and later died. From here the Catholic church gets invaded from the Arian Kings who later convert to the Nicene Creed. From here history reveals many attacks from the netherworld but none of them ever prevailed the Catholic Church.

Many historians Catholic and non catholic view that it was the Popes who brought order to a chaotic world of invaders and conquerers.

Its not my thread here to change the topic from Papal infallibility to the Popes in the middle ages. So I will leave that to you and gurney, but it does make a fascinating topic of discussion.

Peace be with you

=Outback04;7238017]Not to sound brash, but I don’t care about infallibility. Doing the will of God and following his word is much more important than anything else. This is where the popes mentioned in the middle ages did nothing of the such, infallible by Catholic church teaching or otherwise.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Thanks gurney; Marriage is a sacrament, Holy Orders is a sacrament, it is from this perspective “what God has joined together” let no man put asunder. Once one enters Holy Orders always remain in Holy Orders, the faculties may be prevented from being excercised, nevertheless, no man can remove sacramental holy orders from a consecrated Priest. Sometimes I forget not all understand the economy of sacraments.

=gurneyhalleck1;7237702]You actually had me, Gabe, until you started invoking matrimonial imagery that doesn’t belong!

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

You know gurney what I find fascinating about St.Augustine quotes: When he speaks here, he is speaking to catechumens or those of already Christian persuasion, St.Augustine deals with faith matters when speaking to his students as you have him teaching here.

But when St.Augustine addresses heretics or non believers St.Augustine does not hold back any punches, for he lists all the successors of Peter in the Popes up to his time and reveals to Generosus that "Peter representing the whole Church the Lord said; “Upon this Rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell will never prevail against it” then St. Augustine goes on to record the quote from Mt.16:18.

Then again St. Augustine speaking against the epistle of Manichaeus called fundamental chapt. 5 says this “For my part, I should not believe the Gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church”. Imagine that St. Augustine submitting to the authority of the Catholic church?

To understand St.Augustine is to learn which audience he is addressing. Other wise my quotes of St.Augustine and your quotes of St.Augustine would place him in a double standard making his teachings unbelievable and stupid at best when taken out of the context from this Dr.of the Catholic Church.

Your quotes reveal the different levels of understanding and teaching that this great Catholic Saint was able to accomplish to his many audiences.

If I were a student of St.Augustine today, he would not need to teach me about the authority of the Church. His catechesis would raise my faith to a higher understanding in my Catholic faith. Yet if I were a heretic, St.Augustine would be quick to cite Mt.16:18 where I am to hold to the authority Jesus placed upon Peter.

It should be noted that Jesus did not build his Church upon Peter’s confession, because Jesus did not name Peter Rock until after Simon bar jona made the confession which got his name changed to Peter and it is not until after the name change that Peter is the one that Jesus will build his Church upon, and give the keys of the kingdom of heaven in order to bind and loose on earth while Jesus the head in heaven binds and looses what ever Peter binds and looses.

To clarify St.Augustine is revealing faith matters because it is revealed by God as such “faith” is that sign from which God begins to build his Church upon Peter. From the full context from your quotes this is the teaching I gather from St.Augustine. He is not giving a teaching about Mt.16:18 here, he only does that when he addresses heretics and the such.

In summary I see no contradiction when St.Augustine addresses heretics and when he is teaching his catechumens from his quotes.

=gurneyhalleck1;7237756]Since we’re quoting folks tonight:

Why have I wanted to make this little introduction? In order to suggest to you that in Peter the Church is to be recognized. Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter’s confession. What is Peter’s confession? ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ There’s the rock for you, there’s the foundation, there’s where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer–St. Augustine of Hippo…John Rotelle, O.S.A., Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Volume III/6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327.

Shortly afterward, after these words of his in which he approved of Peter’s faith and showed that it (his faith )was the rock, he began there and then to show his disciples that it would be necessary for him to come to Jerusalem, and suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and the scribes and the priests, and be killed, and on the third day rise again.—St. Augustine of Hippo…John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Volume III/5, Sermon 183.14, p. 343.

and here’s a classic…

Peter then was true; or rather was Christ true in Peter? Now when the Lord Jesus Christ would, He abandoned Peter, and Peter was found a man; but when it so pleased the Lord Jesus Christ, He filled Peter, and Peter was found true. The Rock (Petra) made Peter true, for the Rock was Christ.—St. Augustine of Hippo…8A Library of the Fathers of the Holy Catholic Church (Oxford: Parker, 1845), Volume 20, Sermon 97.3, p. 686, (Sermon 147, Benedictine Edition).

We know what rock is; and yet a hard and obstinate person is called a rock, and a solid, immovable person is called rock. In praise you take the rock’s solidity, in blame you take its hardness. We know the solidity of the rock, and we accept Christ as the rock: Now the rock was Christ (1 Cor. 10:4)–St. Augustine of Hippo, 21John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (Brooklyn: New City, 1990), Sermons, Volume III/1, Sermon 4.22, p. 197.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

You’re seeing this through the lens of a twenty-first century Catholic apologist trying to mold a fifth century guy into a modern understanding of post-medievel papalism. I see a great man whose idea and understanding of the papacy changed throughout his life. You can read a vast array of quotes from Augustine early in his ‘career’ in which it sounds like he deems Peter the Rock but as he grows, matures, and develops his thinking we see a steady, heavy dose of sermons and commentaries in which he makes it crystal, 100% clear that the CONFESSION is the rock, not the man himself. I can produce another twenty plus sermon quotes on this. I literally have an entire stack of them but for sake of nausea and space only jotted a few on here. Augustine can be addressing heretics, students, bishops, or the maid on the Brady Bunch but the bottom line is he’s making it clear that the Rock is the confession and all of us who confess Christ crucified and risen and the savior of the world are living on the firm foundation of solid theology—the rock. This is the Orthodox understanding and great men like Meyendorff have thoroughly endorsed it with a wealth of theological historical citations and events to back it up.

And nothing I’ve said makes Augustine look stupid. Growing in understanding of doctrine and having papal quotes taken out of context like “Rome has spoken” doesn’t make this great bishop look stupid. I will not follow what I think is stupid to its conclusion here as I want to keep this civil and charitable. So let’s keep stupid off the table completely.

You know gurney what I find fascinating about St.Augustine quotes: When he speaks here, he is speaking to catechumens or those of already Christian persuasion, St.Augustine deals with faith matters when speaking to his students as you have him teaching here.

But when St.Augustine addresses heretics or non believers St.Augustine does not hold back any punches, for he lists all the successors of Peter in the Popes up to his time and reveals to Generosus that "Peter representing the whole Church the Lord said; “Upon this Rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell will never prevail against it” then St. Augustine goes on to record the quote from Mt.16:18.

Then again St. Augustine speaking against the epistle of Manichaeus called fundamental chapt. 5 says this “For my part, I should not believe the Gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church”. Imagine that St. Augustine submitting to the authority of the Catholic church?

To understand St.Augustine is to learn which audience he is addressing. Other wise my quotes of St.Augustine and your quotes of St.Augustine would place him in a double standard making his teachings unbelievable and stupid at best when taken out of the context from this Dr.of the Catholic Church.

Your quotes reveal the different levels of understanding and teaching that this great Catholic Saint was able to accomplish to his many audiences.

If I were a student of St.Augustine today, he would not need to teach me about the authority of the Church. His catechesis would raise my faith to a higher understanding in my Catholic faith. Yet if I were a heretic, St.Augustine would be quick to cite Mt.16:18 where I am to hold to the authority Jesus placed upon Peter.

It should be noted that Jesus did not build his Church upon Peter’s confession, because Jesus did not name Peter Rock until after Simon bar jona made the confession which got his name changed to Peter and it is not until after the name change that Peter is the one that Jesus will build his Church upon, and give the keys of the kingdom of heaven in order to bind and loose on earth while Jesus the head in heaven binds and looses what ever Peter binds and looses.

To clarify St.Augustine is revealing faith matters because it is revealed by God as such that God built his Church upon Peter. From the full context from your quotes this is the teaching I gather from St.Augustine. He is not giving a teaching about Mt.16:18 here, he only does that when he addresses heretics and the such.

In summary I see no contradiction when St.Augustine addresses heretics and when he is teaching his catechumens from his quotes.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

No, let us keep him in context, when St.Augustine speaks of Peter the man there is no rock what so ever, It is not until Jesus Christ and Peter become one now the Rock is revealed. Please reread the Dr. again when he gives the description between the man Peter and when Peter and Jesus become one and the same the Rock is what Jesus is building his Church upon. I gather this very clearly from St.Augustine. It may be you forcing a protestant view of fatih only which this great Catholic Saint never heard of.

=gurneyhalleck1;7238353]You’re seeing this through the lens of a twenty-first century Catholic apologist trying to mold a fifth century guy into a modern understanding of post-medievel papalism. I see a great man whose idea and understanding of the papacy changed throughout his life. You can read a vast array of quotes from Augustine early in his ‘career’ in which it sounds like he deems Peter the Rock but as he grows, matures, and develops his thinking we see a steady, heavy dose of sermons and commentaries in which he makes it crystal, 100% clear that the CONFESSION is the rock, not the man himself. I can produce another twenty plus sermon quotes on this. I literally have an entire stack of them but for sake of nausea and space only jotted a few on here. Augustine can be addressing heretics, students, bishops, or the maid on the Brady Bunch but the bottom line is he’s making it clear that the Rock is the confession and all of us who confess Christ crucified and risen and the savior of the world are living on the firm foundation of solid theology—the rock. This is the Orthodox understanding and great men like Meyendorff have thoroughly endorsed it with a wealth of theological historical citations and events to back it up.

And nothing I’ve said makes Augustine look stupid. Growing in understanding of doctrine and having papal quotes taken out of context like “Rome has spoken” doesn’t make this great bishop look stupid. I will not follow what I think is stupid to its conclusion here as I want to keep this civil and charitable. So let’s keep stupid off the table completely.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Hey gurney, I think your thread hit the 1000th post, does this mean we are off the air here, or are the moderaters asleep?

 

[Protestant101]

Priests reserve the right to refuse absolution. I personally have never had it happen but the assistant priest at the parish here in town knows some priests in our diocese who regularly refuse absolution…

“Regularly Refuse” it eh? Wow! I am so glad that our salvation and forgiveness of sins does not EVER depend upon this kind of person. This has got to be one of the most fallible teachings I have ever seen - men refusing to forgive men and actually thinking that they have a right to do only that which God can do!

In contrast to Priest or Pope, Jesus stands ready to forgive ALL who come to Him personally:

Psa 86:5 For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee.

If Roman Catholics are truly a people of the Bible, they will admit the fallible nature of this teaching that their Priests/Popes have some kind of “right” or “authority” to do this to people…infact, the Bible shows clearly, only examples of people going direct to God themselves with no human mediation for their forgiveness…it doesn’t show people going to human priests for this.

Forgiveness of sins is only possible by the blood of Jesus; the already shed blood of Jesus, not the constantly re-shed blood of Jesus with those little white communion cookies. Priests who say they can forgive sins, are in effect saying they can grant eternal life - because we do not have eternal life without forgiveness of sins.

Papal fallibility is so obvious, I don’t know how anyone could miss it.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

A Protestant view or an Orthodox view?

I’m intellectually honest, Gabe, you know that. I can take the truth. I am looking for it. I do not jealously try to defend one position and fight tooth and nail. I can be honest and I’m sure you’re aware of my ability to be objective. For example, take St. Jerome. One can find two different quotes from him that can prove either the Catholic or Orthodox position of papal status.

The one foundation which the apostolic architect laid is our Lord Jesus Christ. Upon this stable and firm foundation, which has itself been laid on solid ground, the Church of Christ is built…For the Church was founded upon a rock…upon this rock the Lord established his Church; and the apostle Peter received his name from this rock–St. Jerome, Commentary on Matthew 7.25, M.P.L., Vol. 26, Col. 51. Cited by Karlfried Froehlich,

and

Was there no other province in the whole world to receive the gospel of pleasure, and into which the serpent might insinuate itself, except that which was founded by the teaching of Peter upon the rock Christ?—St. Jerome, 170Philip Schaff and Henry Wace, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1954), Volume VI, St. Jerome, Against Jovinanius, Book 2.37.

Notice the Rock is Christ in both and Peter comes from the Rock of Christ, not the other way around as you surmise

and yet…

’You are Peter and upon this rock I shall build my Church.’ Just as Christ himself gave light to the apostles, in order that they might be called the light of the world, so other names were derived from the Lord: for example, Simon, who believed in the rock, Christ, was given the name ‘Peter.’ And in accordance with the metaphor of the rock, Jesus rightly said to him: 'I shall build my Church upon you. And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.–St. Jerome, 167Commentary on Matthew III, 16:18, M.P.L., Vol. 26, Col. 121-122.

What’s the whole point? There was diversity in the early Church and one can quote things all day long. The fact is, there’s plenty of reasonable doubt to make your claims about infallibility and universal jurisdiction seem to be very, very murky water, Gabe. Plenty of reasonable doubt. That’s my point. It’s not that your views are crazy, unreasonable, or “out there.” Not at all. but there is reasonable doubt. It’s not just a “protestant” thing as you like to state. It’s the opinion of the Orthodoxy as well.

Time for me to hit the tick. Blessings in Christ, Gabriel.

No, let us keep him in context, when St.Augustine speaks of Peter the man there is no rock what so ever, It is not until Jesus Christ and Peter become one now the Rock is revealed. Please reread the Dr. again when he gives the description between the man Peter and when Peter and Jesus become one and the same the Rock is what Jesus is building his Church upon. I gather this very clearly from St.Augustine. It may be you forcing a protestant view of fatih only which this great Catholic Saint never heard of.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

LOL. Well it’s a spirited, fruitful conversation and I enjoy being challenged and stimulated. So it’s fine with me if it goes on. I can’t grow as a person if I don’t debate and discuss these things; I’ll stagnate man!!

Hey gurney, I think your thread hit the 1000th post, does this mean we are off the air here, or are the moderaters asleep?

 

[Protestant101]

BTW the Roman Catholic doctrine that Priests can forgive sins, like Jesus, shows that Roman Catholics did not infact constitute “the first church” and that Roman Catholics are the ones who departed from the true Church, that Jesus, my favorite Protestant was/is The Head of.

All Roman Catholics are hereby invited to come home…come home to the truth; and to God’s Remnant Church. This is an open invitation that will never be cancelled.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

From the Catholic church’s perspective Jesus is building his church upon both Peter and his confession before his name change. St.Augustines teachings do not conflict with the Catholic church’s interpretation. Never mind how I explain this, the Catholic church’s position is the one I uphold. Just for clarification, because Lord knows I don’t want to read 10 pages of St.Augustine from his Catholic faith.

Peace be with you gurney:thumbsup:

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I have to take issue with some statements here, Protestant. I said some priests regularly refuse it. I didn’t say that’s a good thing! Jesus does stand ready to forgive. But usually a priest will refuse absolution if the penitent, like you or I, is confessing but not willing to amend the behavior. For example, I confess that I’m cohabitating with a woman sleeping with her. I confess it and the priest asks, “are you going to cease having intercourse as of right now and move out?” and the guy says, “nope!” then the confession is being used by the guy as a technicality, a silly and insincere exercise in which the priest views it as abusive to the sacrament. Some people also make excuses for sins and don’t plan to amend their ways. There are situations which mitigate, you know that. But I can safely tell you that I have been to confession at least 500 times in my 35 years and I can tell you anecdotally I’ve done some dumb and embarrassing stuff in my time, never have I been refused absolution…

And I will ask you to apologize to Catholics for your “re-shed little communion cookies” comment. That honestly hurt me greatly how you worded that. It’s unconscionable to blast and insult and demean the most sublime Sacrament of them all—the Eucharist. If you don’t agree with our view of it, quietly do so and do it with respect for our faith, not outright mockery. Little white cookie is insulting and just painful to even hear…

Catholics do NOT believe it’s “re-shed.” That shows you have some studying to do with the Eucharistic theology, protestant. The Sacrifice of the Mass, in Catholic theology and Orthodox IS THE SAME moment as Calvary, on Golgotha, at the foot of the Cross, the same exact sacrifice, not a new one cooked up by Catholics to re-do anything. It’s not a repeat, but a mystical participation in the same holy event that occurred that black day. the Eucharist is the fullness of Christ’s divinity, body, and soul. It is the totality of the Christian experience. The sacrifice of Christ happend once and for all as per Hebrews. The Mass is a mystical entry into that same moment, that same sacrifice, and a participation in it so that all Christians whether in 1000 AD or 50AD or in 2010 AD can all know the same Lord, the same Body, the same Blood, and Sacrament until He comes again.

Blessings.

“Regularly Refuse” it eh? Wow! I am so glad that our salvation and forgiveness of sins does not EVER depend upon this kind of person. This has got to be one of the most fallible teachings I have ever seen - men refusing to forgive men and actually thinking that they have a right to do only that which God can do!

In contrast to Priest or Pope, Jesus stands ready to forgive ALL who come to Him personally:

Psa 86:5 For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee.

If Roman Catholics are truly a people of the Bible, they will admit the fallible nature of this teaching that their Priests/Popes have some kind of “right” or “authority” to do this to people…infact, the Bible shows clearly, only examples of people going direct to God themselves with no human mediation for their forgiveness…it doesn’t show people going to human priests for this.

Forgiveness of sins is only possible by the blood of Jesus; the already shed blood of Jesus, not the constantly re-shed blood of Jesus with those little white communion cookies. Priests who say they can forgive sins, are in effect saying they can grant eternal life - because we do not have eternal life without forgiveness of sins.

Papal fallibility is so obvious, I don’t know how anyone could miss it.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Nor do I! We’re like two boxers in the fifteenth round!

From the Catholic church’s perspective Jesus is building his church upon both Peter and his confession before his name change. St.Augustines teachings do not conflict with the Catholic church’s interpretation. Never mind how I explain this, the Catholic church’s position is the one I uphold. Just for clarification, because Lord knows I don’t want to read 10 pages of St.Augustine from his Catholic faith.

Peace be with you gurney:thumbsup:

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Hello Protestant 101 remember me its Gabriel of 12, good to see here again:thumbsup:
How is it that Jesus sends and gives his Church the power to forgive sin, and or retain them? Does your faith practice this biblical powerful mininstry of reconciliation? biblicly taught and given to the Authority of the Church. If seventh day adventist practice this ministry of reconciliation can you reveal here how Jesus gave you the authority to forgive sins and or retain sins? as quoted from scriptures?

John 20:21
14 (Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.”
22
15 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit.
23
16 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

2Corinthians 5:18
12 And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ **and given us the ministry of reconciliation, **

Mt. 9:6
3 But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" --he then said to the paralytic, “Rise, pick up your stretcher, and go home.”
7
He rose and went home.
8
4 **When the crowds saw this they were struck with awe and glorified God who had given such authority to human beings. **

Hey thanks for the invite, but Iam already married and wear the wedding garment Jesus gave me from my baptism without spot or wrinkle, but thanks anyway.

=Protestant101;7238400]BTW the Roman Catholic doctrine that Priests can forgive sins, like Jesus, shows that Roman Catholics did not infact constitute “the first church” and that Roman Catholics are the ones who departed from the true Church, that Jesus, my favorite Protestant was/is The Head of.

All Roman Catholics are hereby invited to come home…come home to the truth; and to God’s Remnant Church. This is an open invitation that will never be cancelled.