Curiosity Question About Orders for Catholic Experts

[RevDrNorth]

I have read a number of the “Old Catholic” sites in the US. I understand some have valid but illicit orders, etc. I also know that the Edwardian Ordinal was allegedly flawed in terms of Anglicans.

So, here is the question. What would be the situation if you had someone with valid apostolic succession ordain a priest using the 1928 Episcopal Prayer Book/1979 Prayer Episcopal Prayer Book (presumably rectifying the Edwardian error) or for that matter some other liturgy such as an Eastern Orthodox Rite. Would they be validly consecrated Priests?

It brings up interesting questions in terms of the Old Catholics (example the ones (Utrecht) in communion with the Anglican Communion) and those Bishops involved in consecrations or ordinations using Anglican liturgies since they are in valid Apostolic Succession. Or even in terms of the Traditional Anglican Communion (TAC) that is seeking union with Rome. I have not studied where their orders were from but suppose they contained Old Catholic orders (valid succession) and simply used the Book of Common Prayer. Would they need to be re ordained if the TAC was united with Rome?

 

[Rebelecka]

I think this question could best be asked of an apologist…

 

[RevDrNorth]

I think this question could best be asked of an apologist…

Thank you I sent it over. I realize it has a lot of nuances and you are right.

 

[Irish_Melkite]

I have read a number of the “Old Catholic” sites in the US. I understand some have valid but illicit orders, etc. I also know that the Edwardian Ordinal was allegedly flawed in terms of Anglicans.

So, here is the question. What would be the situation if you had someone with valid apostolic succession ordain a priest using the 1928 Episcopal Prayer Book/1979 Prayer Episcopal Prayer Book (presumably rectifying the Edwardian error) or for that matter some other liturgy such as an Eastern Orthodox Rite. Would they be validly consecrated Priests?

It brings up interesting questions in terms of the Old Catholics (example the ones (Utrecht) in communion with the Anglican Communion) and those Bishops involved in consecrations or ordinations using Anglican liturgies since they are in valid Apostolic Succession. Or even in terms of the Traditional Anglican Communion (TAC) that is seeking union with Rome. I have not studied where their orders were from but suppose they contained Old Catholic orders (valid succession) and simply used the Book of Common Prayer. Would they need to be re ordained if the TAC was united with Rome?

Dr North,

The mixing of episcopal lineage between various Churches of the Anglican Communion (and Anglican ecclesia outside the Communion) with Old Catholic, Old Catholic “type”, and so-called “independent” Catholic/Orthodox Churches, most of which have some (others many) valid though illicit lines presents a significant issue for Rome, particularly in its application of the Augustinian Theory of Succession. As long as Rome adheres to that versus the Cyprianic Theory, there will be any number of instances in which valid though illicit ordination will be considered to exist, at least arguably, and each case requires individual scrutiny as to the actors, form, circumstances, and intent involved.

Bottom line, it is almost impossible to afford a definitive answer to your query without looking at a specific episcopal genealogy. I would note that there are no documented instances, to my knowledge, in which a hierarch of a canonical (Eastern) Orthodox Church participated in episcopal ordination of Anglicans. While it was hoped that such might occur at what has come to be known as the Circus at Fond du Lac, it failed to come to fuition. Nor did Arnold Harris Mathew’s short-lived union with Antioch reach that stage, albeit the apparent reception of some Old Catholics into Orthodoxy by oekonomia and the Russian Synod’s 1904 response to the American Book of Common Prayer certainly gave some indication that the idea was not totally beyond consideration. More recent responses, though, have suggested that full communio in sacris would be a prerequisite to it happening.

Many years,

Neil