Daily Worship in the Latin Church

[SMHW]

I want to point out one more time just for the record how much the NCR types in the Church whine unceasingly about how much they love liturgical “inculturation,” yet it is clear that at least in the US, true and vibrant “cultural Catholicism” died somewhere in the 1965-1975 period.

I would question whether or not your dates are valid.

I think that in many places the cultural Catholicism you speak of began to die out in the mid-1950s. I think some of that can be attributed to tendency of Catholic young couples to move thousands of miles away from family to take jobs in new areas. These young families maintained their Catholic traditions for a while but, with no nearby extended family and the upheaval following Vatican II, a lot of families lost those cultural expressions of their Faith.

 

[YoungTradCath]

I would question whether or not your dates are valid.

I think that in many places the cultural Catholicism you speak of began to die out in the mid-1950s. I think some of that can be attributed to tendency of Catholic young couples to move thousands of miles away from family to take jobs in new areas. These young families maintained their Catholic traditions for a while but, with no nearby extended family and the upheaval following Vatican II, a lot of families lost those cultural expressions of their Faith.

What you say might be true, but there was a significant cultural aspect of Catholicism for most people in this country until after the Council was ending/over.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

I think that in many places the cultural Catholicism you speak of began to die out in the mid-1950s.

Indeed there are traces of modernistic trends in the Church dating back to the post-war era, beginning in the mid to late 40s. Logically speaking, Vatican II alone could not have spurred an immediate trend, and a study of Vatican II and its participants show that the seeds had already sprouted by then.

 

[SMHW]

What you say might be true, but there was a significant cultural aspect of Catholicism for most people in this country until after the Council was ending/over.

Oh, I would agree with that.

I don’t have any statistics to support this but I suspect that the majority of the parishes in the United States were established during or after Vatican II (with a significant number of them being established while the Council was in session). My guess is that places where the majority of the parishes existed prior to 1960 maintained their Catholic culture far longer than areas where the majority of parishes were established after that date.

 

[lssanjose]

To chime in briefly, hoping to resurrect this thread a little, I’ll have to agree with Constantine’s point about this abuse, with respect to liturgical life, or lack thereof in the Roman rite. One of the many things I admire about Orthodox churches, is they haven’t compromised this very thing we’re discussing. They offer Matins, and Vespers. The one I’ve been going to has vespers every Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday evening. Then, there are Matins before divine liturgy.

When looking at the case within Roman Catholic churches, I suppose I’m lucky to have a Latin rite laity who’s remotely devoted to the their faith, despite not extending liturgical life, in the sense of what was brought up, in the OP. They do Rosary gatherings before the daily mass. Also, depending on who’s leading, they’ll do the chaplet of divine mercy. However, it does help the church for it to have a more elderly populace in the daily mass. I can tell a lot of those who go through the daily mass, is there’s a high likelihood, they’re from the “old guard,” so to speak.

There are things offered, in addition to adoration hours of the blessed sacrament: Adult education (which kind of planted the seed(s) of my curiosity to study, and ultimately dive into Eastern Christianity); youth education, and events.

I think, what may be left out of the equation, is the community climate, in which, one resides. For years, I’ve attended church at a Navy base, and because of this, there was a diversity of faiths. Because of this diversity (not meaning to degenerate the other faiths), the community couldn’t bond further beyond mass, and CCD. Nowadays, things have changed there: my folks are doing the Why Catholic? program; and I’ve attended a few sessions. When my brother was still living with the family, he also had a youth group, to which, he belonged. I didn’t have that growing up in the faith, just CCD (one hour of time) and the mass. I know my mom (especially) has always been devotional, doing novenas on occasion. There was also a stretch of time the whole family prayed the rosary (especially when my dad was out to sea), every evening.

As I’m reading Alexander Schmemann’s book on LIturgy and Life: Christian Development through Liturgical Experience, it touched up, immediately, on the idea of the liturgical, or church life, reflecting within homes, and families. I think this very point was touched up on earlier very nicely, I might add, meaning it ultimately came down to culture, and the collective cultural mentality of parishioners, especially here in the U.S.

 

[OraLabora]

I agree that wider public celebration of the LoTH is necessary. As others have pointed out you don’t even need an ordained minister to lead it, and you don’t have to do it in a church building either; our schola for example used to rehearse on Thursday evenings and we’d chant Compline before leaving.

In my parish, when no priest is available for weekday Mass (8 am), Mass is replaced by Lauds. Which is laudable!

The proper chant official chant book also exists to allow chanting Vespers of Sundays throughout the year, feasts and solemnities. Moreover an excellent diurnal antiphonary exists from the Communauté St-Martin in France (all of the hours except the Office of Readings, noted for chanting in Latin or French). So it’s also feasible to at least include some Gregorian chant perhaps on special occasions.

It is the official liturgy of the Church, and the laity are encouraged to participate.

 

[lssanjose]

I agree that wider public celebration of the LoTH is necessary. As others have pointed out you don’t even need an ordained minister to lead it, and you don’t have to do it in a church building either; our schola for example used to rehearse on Thursday evenings and we’d chant Compline before leaving.

In my parish, when no priest is available for weekday Mass (8 am), Mass is replaced by Lauds. Which is laudable!

The proper chant official chant book also exists to allow chanting Vespers of Sundays throughout the year, feasts and solemnities. Moreover an excellent diurnal antiphonary exists from the Communauté St-Martin in France (all of the hours except the Office of Readings, noted for chanting in Latin or French). So it’s also feasible to at least include some Gregorian chant perhaps on special occasions.

It is the official liturgy of the Church, and the laity are encouraged to participate.

I wonder if we should take this attempt at revitalizing it, at the grassroots level. I may ask around, if/when I decide to go to the morning weekday masses, this week. I may ask if LoTH was something done before, as the church I’ve been going to has been around for some time; and has quite a devoted congregation.

 

[SMHW]

I wonder if we should take this attempt at revitalizing it, at the grassroots level. I may ask around, if/when I decide to go to the morning weekday masses, this week. I may ask if LoTH was something done before, as the church I’ve been going to has been around for some time; and has quite a devoted congregation.

At my parish we do have daily Mass. But we also have morning prayer. We use the option/rite where morning prayer leads directly into Mass. Morning prayer starts 15 minutes prior to the official Mass start time.

The only “issue” I see is that the start time for Mass can vary a bit depending on how long morning prayer takes. People who can’t make it in time for morning prayer but can make it for the official Mass start time sometimes miss the first few minutes.

 

[lssanjose]

At my parish we do have daily Mass. But we also have morning prayer. We use the option/rite where morning prayer leads directly into Mass. Morning prayer starts 15 minutes prior to the official Mass start time.

The only “issue” I see is that the start time for Mass can vary a bit depending on how long morning prayer takes. People who can’t make it in time for morning prayer but can make it for the official Mass start time sometimes miss the first few minutes.

Is the delay due to the priest participating in the morning prayer? Or just the laity, of no fault of their own, forget about time constraints, as they’re praying. I know I try to keep my pace, when leading, to a decent pace, not too slow, but definitely not too fast.

 

[SMHW]

Is the delay due to the priest participating in the morning prayer? Or just the laity, of no fault of their own, forget about time constraints, as they’re praying. I know I try to keep my pace, when leading, to a decent pace, not too slow, but definitely not too fast.

The priest participates in morning prayer.

Morning prayer starts at 7:45am and Mass is scheduled to start at 800am. But Mass actually starts whenever morning prayer ends. Sometimes that can be three or four minutes before 8:00am and sometime three or four minutes after 8:00am.

 

[lssanjose]

The priest participates in morning prayer.

Morning prayer starts at 7:45am and Mass is scheduled to start at 800am. But Mass actually starts whenever morning prayer ends. Sometimes that can be three or four minutes before 8:00am and sometime three or four minutes after 8:00am.

That leaves very little wiggle room. I know the church’s daily mass begins at 8:30am. They probably don’t start doing morning prayers, until 8am or so. That still leaves enough time for the Chaplet of Divine Mercy, and the Rosary. Again, it depends on the pace at which the group prays.

 

[anp1215]

Funny that I found this thread, because I was thinking about this the other day. I was thinking that ideally, a Catholic Church should always have something “going on” and that that is what separates us from non-Catholic churches. I know there are some small parishes and missions that can’t do this, but it’s really the ideal. For example, there’s always someone at my parish, literally. There’s perpetual adoration, lots of prayer-type things in the church, a school, Bible studies, lots of classes, etc.

 

[lssanjose]

Funny that I found this thread, because I was thinking about this the other day. I was thinking that ideally, a Catholic Church should always have something “going on” and that that is what separates us from non-Catholic churches. I know there are some small parishes and missions that can’t do this, but it’s really the ideal. For example, there’s always someone at my parish, literally. There’s perpetual adoration, lots of prayer-type things in the church, a school, Bible studies, lots of classes, etc.

I think, personally, the crux of the issue is the lack of liturgical services, like the Liturgy of the Hours. I think Phillip Rolfes did wonderful post on them

 

[tafan]

This thread is somewhat of an offshoot from a thread in the “Non-Catholic Religions” sub-forum entitled Examining Orthodox Theology. In that thread one poster suggested that the liturgical life of the Eastern Churches is potentially lacking because of a general lack of celebration of daily Mass/Divine Liturgy (there are reasons for this lack which we can discuss later). In response another poster said the following (I’ll put it in bold because I’m too stupid to figure out how to do quotes):

“As noted earlier, access to daily Divine Liturgy would vary depending on the congregation itself of a parish. Besides, there is more to daily spiritual life than Mass. To tell you the truth, I find Roman Catholicism here in North America very lacking for lack of any religious activity besides Mass. No wonder priests have been experimenting left and right with the Masses here. When you go to a parish all you can do is Mass. I appreciate our Liturgical services especially during Holy Week, with all the different prayer services and processions.”

So the question for discussion in this thread is: Do you think there is a connection between liturgical experimentation/abuse and the lack of a broader liturgical life in the Roman Church outside of Mass?

I think there is a connection between th lack of **practice **of a broader liturgical life in the Roman Church outside of mass. There is NO lack of broader liturgical/prayer life in the Roman Church. Quite the opposite, I would guess that no other Church has a rich of number of options as the Latin Rite does. Litugically, there is liturgy of the hours, which is quite extensive. There is also Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament. Non-litugically, we have the Rosary, the Stations of the Cross, seemingly countless novenas and other devotions.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

I think there is a connection between th lack of **practice **of a broader liturgical life in the Roman Church outside of mass. There is NO lack of broader liturgical/prayer life in the Roman Church. Quite the opposite, I would guess that no other Church has a rich of number of options as the Latin Rite does. Litugically, there is liturgy of the hours, which is quite extensive. There is also Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament. Non-litugically, we have the Rosary, the Stations of the Cross, seemingly countless novenas and other devotions.

Yes. Lack of “practice” of a broader liturgical life is the point of this whole thread.

I would point out, however that there are other Churches - both Catholic and otherwise - that have every bit as broad a liturgical life as the Roman Church. Catholics and Orthodox of the Byzantine tradition, for example, also have their versions of the Liturgy of the Hours (more commonly known among us as the “Horologion”), and we also have “para-liturgical” offices such as Paraklesis and the various Akathists (and Molebens in the Slavic Byzantine Churches). I’m also given to understand that even the Anglicans and the Lutherans have their own versions of the Liturgy of the Hours.

 

[lssanjose]

I think, it’s not a matter of absence, but a matter of emphasis. The Byzantine parish doesn’t have liturgical services, outside of liturgy. But, there are circumstances making difficult to hold a variety of liturgical services. The orthodox church I go to has only Vesper services Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday. Matins, and liturgy Sundays. The Roman church I’ve been going to have devotion, outside of mass, but that is it. Its dependent on the priest’s situation, and what the congregation demands

 

[ConstantineTG]

I think, it’s not a matter of absence, but a matter of emphasis. The Byzantine parish doesn’t have liturgical services, outside of liturgy. But, there are circumstances making difficult to hold a variety of liturgical services. The orthodox church I go to has only Vesper services Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday. Matins, and liturgy Sundays. The Roman church I’ve been going to have devotion, outside of mass, but that is it. Its dependent on the priest’s situation, and what the congregation demands

Right. It is the overall spirituality of the congregation that would dictate what the parish does. My parish does not have regular Vespers. How could they? We try to restore Vespers by having them on most of the Great Feasts but no one shows up. I love it, I show up. But often the priest has to endure my terrible singing because no one blessed with a pleasing singing voice shows up.

 

[lssanjose]

Right. It is the overall spirituality of the congregation that would dictate what the parish does. My parish does not have regular Vespers. How could they? We try to restore Vespers by having them on most of the Great Feasts but no one shows up. I love it, I show up. But often the priest has to endure my terrible singing because no one blessed with a pleasing singing voice shows up.

Your highlighting of Spirituality is key, to me, at least. If the congregation is diverse, and demanding enough, I think there would be liturgical services, around the clock. The problem is, to me, is the notion of what it means to be spiritual. Often, there isn’t a sense of spirituality within the congregation of the Roman church I went to. Part of the problem is spirituality isn’t touched upon, in most churches. It may due to a sense of the taboo. For some Roman Catholics, the mass is something you do, and not something you feel. Some Roman masses try bringing out a spiritual aspect, by way of chanting. But this isn’t done consistently. Because it’s not enforced, consistently, it’ll affect their spiritual consistency, at the same time, to me.

One of my favorite Bruce Lee quotes is, “we need emotional content, not anger.” I think this is why a spiritual father, as it pertains to the Jesus prayer is really important. How to harmonize one’s mind, body, and soul, during liturgy.