Daniel and things we cannot understand until end times?

[mikekle]

I was just reading about this, God told Daniel to seal these bible verses or statements up until the end times, as people would not be able to understand them until they were actually living in the end times. If we look at these verses, they ALL can be understood today, so Im assuming this means Jesus is at the door. Or is there another meaning to this regarding Daniel? not sure how it could be seen as anything else though!

The only thing that makes me think it is wrong, is the increased knowledge thing, yes, we have the internet and world wide 24 hour a day news coverage, but there really is not much NEW knowledge being found out IMO, We have just found a better way to access all previous info into one place (internet), as a whole race though, It does not appear that we are getting any smarter either, if you look at schools and generalized knowledge testing given to young people, it actually shows people are LESS smart than times past

Im curious about everyones opinions on this.

 

[DavidFilmer]

I think the end times are MANY thousands of years off, so if the passage means what you say, we are really no closer to truly understanding it than we would have been 1000 years ago. What’s a couple of thousand years compared to a process that spans (IMHO) more than a hundred thousand years? Humanity has barely even gotten started (IMHO). It’s a little early to think about retirement!

 

[Aelred_Minor]

“End times” here probably means the reign of Antiochus IV. Not that there isn’t a kind of applicability to more recent salvation history as well.

 

[Porknpie]

I think the end times are MANY thousands of years off, so if the passage means what you say, we are really no closer to truly understanding it than we would have been 1000 years ago. What’s a couple of thousand years compared to a process that spans (IMHO) more than a hundred thousand years? Humanity has barely even gotten started (IMHO). It’s a little early to think about retirement!

David, are we not already in the “last days”?

731 On the day of Pentecost when the seven weeks of Easter had come to an end, Christ’s Passover is fulfilled in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, manifested, given, and communicated as a divine person: of his fullness, Christ, the Lord, pours out the Spirit in abundance.122

732 On that day, the Holy Trinity is fully revealed. Since that day, the Kingdom announced by Christ has been open to those who believe in him: in the humility of the flesh and in faith, they already share in the communion of the Holy Trinity. By his coming, which never ceases, the Holy Spirit causes the world to enter into the “last days,” the time of the Church, the Kingdom already inherited though not yet consummated.

Pork

 

[DavidFilmer]

David, are we not already in the “last days”?

Yes, we are.

Obviously, we cannot regard “days” here as literal earth days (one earth rotation). Since the year 29 AD (the year of Pentacost, if Jesus was born in 4BC and died at age 33), there have been about 725,000 days. So “days” is clearly to be interpreted in a sense that is not strictly earth-literal, or the notion of “last days” preached in the Early Church would defy human understanding.

I believe (and the Church does not argue) that the term “days” is not necessarily literal. We are told that the act of creation (described in the Bible as taking six “days”) took 14.3 billion years, measured in human time.

Each “day” of creation-time is, thus, about 2.38 billion years (“years” means the time interval that the earth circles the sun). Even if “last days” (plural) means only two “days” (the minimum number to arrive at a plural count), that’s nearly five BILLION years in “creation days.” That’s five thousand million years.

I propose that Biblical prophecy extends NO MORE than a quarter MILLION years (250,000 years). I think everything will be wrapped up around the year 250,000. That sounds FAR in the future to us, but in God-days (creation-days), that’s only 55.21 MINUTES. It’s not even an hour, much less a day, much less “days.”

Measured in “God time” (creation time), 2000 years is 26.5008 seconds. I propose that, when time is viewed from God’s perspective, humanity is in its infancy. It’s absolutely perperstorous to suppose that the “end times” would occur as recently as 2000 years after the birth of the Church. To God, that’s less than a minute! What is His hurry? Why, after BILLIONS of years, is a few thousand or a few hundred years suddenly important?

Has the human race REALLY achieved whatever God expected when he created it? Or even come close???

I don’t think that our understanding of “last days” should be related in any way to the “end times,” but rather to express that we are in the days when ALL divine revelation has been made. Everything that the Church will ever need to know has already been revealed in the Deposit of Faith, so there will never be anything “new,” so these are the “last days,” even though they might span a quarter-million years or more.

 

[Gorgias]

I was just reading about this, God told Daniel to seal these bible verses or statements up until the end times, as people would not be able to understand them until they were actually living in the end times. If we look at these verses, they ALL can be understood today, so Im assuming this means Jesus is at the door. Or is there another meaning to this regarding Daniel? not sure how it could be seen as anything else though!

Here’s the thing, though: if you were to ask people who lived 10, 100, 1000, or 1500 years ago, they would have told you the same thing – they had a clear and precise understanding of Daniel (which would have included interpretations of the signs of their times!) which told them that they were living in the end times!

Now, maybe you mean “end times” in a generic sense – that is, since the Kingdom of Heaven is ‘already present’ – in which case the end times have been here for 2000 years already. However, it seems that you mean it in a specific sense – that the parousia is imminent. If so, then you’re saying what people have been saying for 2000 years, but just interpreting the signs to mean ‘now’ rather than ‘1550AD’ or ‘950AD’ or ‘50AD’. If that’s the case, then I would have to disagree with you: it doesn’t seem that Daniel necessarily must fit the signs of the (present-day) times…

 

[steve_b]

I was just reading about this, God told Daniel to seal these bible verses or statements up until the end times, as people would not be able to understand them until they were actually living in the end times. If we look at these verses, they ALL can be understood today, so Im assuming this means Jesus is at the door. Or is there another meaning to this regarding Daniel? not sure how it could be seen as anything else though!

The only thing that makes me think it is wrong, is the increased knowledge thing, yes, we have the internet and world wide 24 hour a day news coverage, but there really is not much NEW knowledge being found out IMO, We have just found a better way to access all previous info into one place (internet), as a whole race though, It does not appear that we are getting any smarter either, if you look at schools and generalized knowledge testing given to young people, it actually shows people are LESS smart than times past

Im curious about everyones opinions on this.

Technically, when a person dies, that’s the end of the world for THEM. And it happens to all of us. When we die we are judged immediately, and go to either heaven with a possible stop over in purgatory for a good cleansing (made perfect) or one goes to hell. At the final judgement, one who has already been judged won’t be judged again. The resurrection of all the bodies who have died, are returned to the soul. If the soul is in heaven they are now in heaven body and soul. If the soul is in hell, they are now in hell body and soul. Purgatory ceases to exist. The final judgement also catches those still alive when the end comes.

 

[mikekle]

Here’s the thing, though: if you were to ask people who lived 10, 100, 1000, or 1500 years ago, they would have told you the same thing – they had a clear and precise understanding of Daniel (which would have included interpretations of the signs of their times!) which told them that they were living in the end times!

Now, maybe you mean “end times” in a generic sense – that is, since the Kingdom of Heaven is ‘already present’ – in which case the end times have been here for 2000 years already. However, it seems that you mean it in a specific sense – that the parousia is imminent. If so, then you’re saying what people have been saying for 2000 years, but just interpreting the signs to mean ‘now’ rather than ‘1550AD’ or ‘950AD’ or ‘50AD’. If that’s the case, then I would have to disagree with you: it doesn’t seem that Daniel necessarily must fit the signs of the (present-day) times… [/UOTE]

I understand what you are saying, but this is what God told them about this…God said no one would be able to understand it except those living in the actual end times, so how can God be wrong? Clearly ALL generations would not be able to understand it, as only one of them can be the right one…Was this a case of God being wrong?

 

[Gorgias]

I understand what you are saying, but this is what God told them about this…God said no one would be able to understand it except those living in the actual end times, so how can God be wrong?

Are you thinking of Daniel 12:4? (“As for you, Daniel, keep secret the message and seal the book until the end time; many shall wander aimlessly and evil shall increase.”) This doesn’t say that those living in the end times will have an exclusive ability to understand the Book of Daniel. In fact, it seems simply to assert that many will misunderstand God’s plan.

Perhaps you’re thinking of the other reference to the sealing of the book, in Daniel 12:8-10? (“I heard, but I did not understand; so I asked, “My lord, what follows this?” “Go, Daniel,” he said, “because the words are to be kept secret and sealed until the end time. Many shall be refined, purified, and tested, but the wicked shall prove wicked; the wicked shall have no understanding, but those with insight shall.””) This, too, though, doesn’t say that everyone in the end time will understand the prophecies, but only ‘those with insight.’

So, I’m not seeing what you’re taking to mean that all in the end time will understand the book of Daniel.

Clearly ALL generations would not be able to understand it, as only one of them can be the right one…Was this a case of God being wrong?

No; I think it’s a case of misunderstanding what Daniel 12 is telling us.

One last thought, though: the book of Daniel is an apocalyptic book, not a prophetic book, per se. There are important differences between these two genres. Apocalyptic books are particularly difficult to interpret, since the way that they use images and language makes it difficult to pin down exact interpretations. I would argue that trying to find clues to the end of the world in Daniel is not what the intent of the book is.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Are you thinking of Daniel 12:4? (“As for you, Daniel, keep secret the message and seal the book until the end time; many shall wander aimlessly and evil shall increase.”) This doesn’t say that those living in the end times will have an exclusive ability to understand the Book of Daniel. In fact, it seems simply to assert that many will misunderstand God’s plan.

Perhaps you’re thinking of the other reference to the sealing of the book, in Daniel 12:8-10? (“I heard, but I did not understand; so I asked, “My lord, what follows this?” “Go, Daniel,” he said, “because the words are to be kept secret and sealed until the end time. Many shall be refined, purified, and tested, but the wicked shall prove wicked; the wicked shall have no understanding, but those with insight shall.””) This, too, though, doesn’t say that everyone in the end time will understand the prophecies, but only ‘those with insight.’

So, I’m not seeing what you’re taking to mean that all in the end time will understand the book of Daniel.

No; I think it’s a case of misunderstanding what Daniel 12 is telling us.

One last thought, though: the book of Daniel is an apocalyptic book, not a prophetic book, per se. There are important differences between these two genres. Apocalyptic books are particularly difficult to interpret, since the way that they use images and language makes it difficult to pin down exact interpretations. I would argue that trying to find clues to the end of the world in Daniel is not what the intent of the book is.

Just on a factual note Daniel, like Revelation, is a sort of mixed genre book. There are certainly strong apocalyptic elements in both, but perhaps both would be better classified as prophetic literature if one had to select only one genre. There is no pure apocalyptic literature in the Bible.

 

[mikekle]

Are you thinking of Daniel 12:4? (“As for you, Daniel, keep secret the message and seal the book until the end time; many shall wander aimlessly and evil shall increase.”) This doesn’t say that those living in the end times will have an exclusive ability to understand the Book of Daniel. In fact, it seems simply to assert that many will misunderstand God’s plan.

Perhaps you’re thinking of the other reference to the sealing of the book, in Daniel 12:8-10? (“I heard, but I did not understand; so I asked, “My lord, what follows this?” “Go, Daniel,” he said, “because the words are to be kept secret and sealed until the end time. Many shall be refined, purified, and tested, but the wicked shall prove wicked; the wicked shall have no understanding, but those with insight shall.””) This, too, though, doesn’t say that everyone in the end time will understand the prophecies, but only ‘those with insight.’

So, I’m not seeing what you’re taking to mean that all in the end time will understand the book of Daniel.

No; I think it’s a case of misunderstanding what Daniel 12 is telling us.

One last thought, though: the book of Daniel is an apocalyptic book, not a prophetic book, per se. There are important differences between these two genres. Apocalyptic books are particularly difficult to interpret, since the way that they use images and language makes it difficult to pin down exact interpretations. I would argue that trying to find clues to the end of the world in Daniel is not what the intent of the book is.

Well, if God said these would be sealed up until the end times, someone would have to know exactly WHEN to open these up…right? Whats to prevent them from being opened prior to the end times also? Is this all there is regarding this, or is there more, that we dont know about yet, or some that still must to opened?

Id definitely say there is a huge increase in evil nowadays, but not sure about people wandering aimlessly, to me, this kind of suggests alot of people being homeless, like following a major disaster.