Darwin: "the imbecile, maimed, and other useless members of society"

  • Thread starter Thread starter davidford
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
40.png
davidford:
Suppose 2 populations of organisms appear only in the fossil record. How would someone determine if the 2 populations of organisms are, or aren’t, “inter-fertile”?
comments by Ward and Ehrlich & Holm on the word “species.”

Credentials. Peter Douglas Ward is Professor of Geological Sciences and
Curator of Invertebrates, Thomas Burke Museum at the University of
Washington, and wrote In Search of Nautilus and The Natural History
of the Nautilus
.

Ward, Peter Douglas. On Methuselah’s Trail: Living Fossils and the
Great Extinctions
(NY: W.H. Freeman, 1992), 212pp. Foreword by Steven
M. Stanley. On 5:
_ _ …one {definition} advanced in 1942 by the great biologist Ernst
_ _ Mayr: “Species are groups of actually or potentially interbreeding
_ _ populations [of organisms] {Ward’s bracketing-df} which are
_ _ reproductively isolated from other such groups.” The key point is
_ _ that species are distinguished by the ability to breed successfully
_ _ from generation to generation.

_ _ This definition, although admirable {actually it’s not, as Ehrlich
_ _ & Holm demonstrate in their article} for currently living
_ _ organisms, is obviously useless to anyone who is studying fossils.
_ _ Though the fossil record yields many insights into the mode of life
_ _ of extinct organisms, it simply doesn’t tell us the juicy details
_ _ of who was sleeping with whom back in the Mesozoic. Nevertheless,
_ _ paleontologists refer to their fossils as belonging to species, and
_ _ in doing so are implying that the various individuals they place
_ _ within their species could, when alive, breed successfully. But
_ _ the truth is that fossils are grouped in species solely because of
_ _ morphological similarity. In other words, they are similar in form
_ _ and structure.

Credentials. According to their The Process of Evolution (1963), Paul
Ehrlich and Richard Holm were associate professors in the division of
systematic biology, dept of biological sciences, Stanford University.
According to Paul & Ann Ehrlich’s Extinction: The Causes and
Consequences of the Disappearance of Species
(1981), Paul Ehrlich is a
professor of biological sciences and Bing Professor of Population
Studies at Stanford U.; as an evolution and ecology expert, he wrote
100+ scientific papers, a series of textbooks, some popular books, and
many articles.

Ehrlich, Paul R. and Richard W. Holm. “Patterns and Populations”
Science 137: 652-7 (1962). On 653:
_ _ Many concepts in population biology have low information content
_ _ and little or no operational meaning. In this category we should
_ _ place such concepts as “competition,” “niche,” “community,”
_ _ “climax,” “species,” “population fitness,” and to some extent
_ _ “population” itself. … As we shall demonstrate, the concept of
_ _ genetic (or “biological”) species, the idea of the community as a
_ _ unit, and many other concepts currently in subdisciplines of
_ _ population biology have much in common with the idea of absolute
_ _ time.
On 654:
_ _ One of the most widely accepted ideas of population biology is that
_ _ higher animals tend to occur in rather well-defined clusters called
_ _ species. Various theoretical definitions of species have been
_ _ attempted, and most of those accepted by modern evolutionists make
_ _ some statement about reproductive isolation between, but not
_ _ within, the clusters. In older definitions, assumptions concerning
_ _ the occurrence or non-occurrence of interbreeding are implicit.
_ _ … It seems clear {from the preceding discussion; get the
_ _ article} that the biological-species definition never has been
_ _ operational and never will be.
On 655:
_ _ The term species should be retained only in its original, less
_ _ restrictive sense of “kind.” There seems to be no reason why
_ _ quantitative methods should not be used to study phenetic
_ _ relationships (those based on similarity rather than imagined
_ _ phylogeny) at what we now loosely call the species level.

This is not on the topic at hand, but I found it interesting. On 656:
_ _ Few nonevolutionists realize that the term adaptation is one of
_ _ the least understood and most misused in population biology.
 
df: What’s the name of “the mechanism”?
sa: Natural Selection
What are the 2 best lines of fossil record evidence for Darwin’s theory of natural selection?

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Essay on Problems with Darwin’s Theory of Natural Selection
groups.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.LNX.4.10A.B3.10005310900310.17702-100000%40jabba.gl.umbc.edu

1983 Simpson on quantum evolution
groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0410130414.284a56ed%40posting.google.com

Simpson misled 1995 Cheetham
groups.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0312080520.163bc617%40posting.google.com

1980 Eldredge: “time to reexamine” theory of NS
groups.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.LNX.4.44L.01.0311302356490.22520-100000%40linux3.gl.umbc.edu

Schindewolf; Simpson on bats
groups.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.LNX.4.10A.B3.10001222211190.17988-100000%40jabba.gl.umbc.edu

Simpson on rapidity/ “quantum evolution”; P. Johnson (a creationist) on Dawkins’s bluster
groups.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.SGI.4.10A.B3.10001152331430.1317621-100000%40umbc8.umbc.edu

Simpson, Eldredge in Synthese, Ager, Corner, Rosen, Grasse, Patterson, Raup, Stanley
groups.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.SGI.3.96A.981222231509.19980I-100000%40umbc9.umbc.edu
df: What’s 1 line of evidence for “the fact of evolution” being a “fact”?
sa: Phylogeny
The chronological and geographical arrangement of all organisms as directly observed in the paleontological and microbiological record amount others
The evidence can (and does as a matter of fact) fill up museums and universities
Macbeth, Norman. Darwin Retried: An Appeal to Reason (NY: Dell
Publishing Co, Inc, 1971), 178pp. On 13-14, the end of one paragraph,
plus the next 2 paragraphs:
_ _ …This reticence is not because our modern authors are more
_ _ ignorant than their ancestors; it is due to bitter experience with
_ _ the frailty of all conjectures in this field [of constructing trees
_ _ of phylogeny]. I will show two vulnerable points.

_ _ First, if a paleontologist portrays known fossil forms such as
_ _ sharks, fishes, and amphibians in man’s family tree, we soon
_ _ perceive that many examples of these forms are still present,
_ _ practically unchanged, although their former siblings are said to
_ _ have worked up to human status. Thus one and the same ancient
_ _ stock split into a group with astonishing plasticity and another
_ _ group with almost total rigidity. This is very hard to swallow.
_ _ Therefore there was a tendency, while trees were still being used,
_ _ to move the known forms out to the branches and reserve the trunk
_ _ for malleable forms not yet discovered. The number of blank spaces
_ _ was a visible and embarrassing sign of ignorance.

_ _ Second, the reader will become familiar (in Chapter 15) with a
_ _ surprising line of thought developed by Robert Broom and Sir Julian
_ _ Huxley to the effect that all specialized forms are dead ends
_ _ because they can only evolve a little further in the same
_ _ direction, remain unchanged, or die out. This applies to fossils
_ _ as well as to living forms, since with the possible exception of
_ _ man all known forms, extinct or extant, early or late, are already
_ _ specialized. Therefore these forms, being ineligible as ancestors,
_ _ must again be moved from the trunk of the tree to the branches.
_ _ The result is that the tips are well populated while the trunk is
_ _ shrouded in mist and mystery. We have the paradox that the remains
_ _ found in the earth’s crust are not those of our ancestors, while
_ _ the bodies of our ancestors have not been preserved at all. We see
_ _ forms that purport to be our cousins, but we have no idea of who
_ _ our common grandparents were.

1977 G&E on diagrams and the uninitiated
groups.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.SGI.3.91.960722001816.872M%40umbc8.umbc.edu
1980 Gould on the tips and nodes of trees
groups.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.SGI.3.95.970901005523.14415B-100000%40umbc8.umbc.edu
df: Do you consider it a “fact” that Bush is the worst President ever?
sa: That would be an opinion
Do you consider it a “fact” that the U.S. is the best country ever?
 
davidford: Was Abram/ Abraham “an ethnic Jew”?
EnterTheBowser: I imagine so.
What considerations lead you to consider Abram/ Abraham “an ethnic Jew”?
Definition of “an ethnic Jew”?
df: Below, Darwin speaks of a “god-like intellect… of… Man.” Do you think Darwin committed “an abuse of language”?
ETB: I think that it is clear that Darwin meant that human intellect was capable of thorougly comprehending the world. I do not think he meant that humans were omniscient.
Do you think that “human intellect” is “capable of thorougly comprehending the world”?

Do you think that starting with simply non-living matter, life can come from non-life?

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Belief in spontaneous generation, blindwatchmaking, and mental spoon-bending is scientific.
google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0401291120.41a6d843%40posting.google.com

some 1915-1999 doses of reality
groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-33arf3F3vjdggU1%40individual.net

1985 A.G. Cairns-Smith, 1986 Andrew Scott, 1999 Freeman Dyson
groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-33bltcF3rgbovU1%40individual.net

On the Origin of Life
groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-39oh33F63riraU1%40individual.net
Reality vs. worldview philosophy of materialism/ atheism
groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-3813ksF5ggkc3U1%40individual.net
 
df: Do you think Darwin “want[ed] those” Darwin “deemed more worthy to have more children and those deemed less to have less everywhere”?
ETB: Probably
Do you think Goebbels “want[ed] those” Goebbels “deemed more worthy to have more children and those deemed less to have less everywhere”?

Goebbels diary entry for 13 May 1943
groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1120450591.444214.186670%40g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
_ _ One might well ask why are there any Jews in the world order?
_ _ That would be exactly like asking why are there potato bugs?
_ _ Nature is dominated by the law of struggle. There will always
_ _ be parasites who will spur this struggle on and intensify the
_ _ process of selection between the strong and the weak. The
_ _ principle of struggle dominates also in human life. One must
_ _ merely know the laws of this struggle to be able to face it. …

_ _ In nature life always takes measures against parasites; in the life
_ _ of nations that is not always the case. From this fact the Jewish
_ _ peril actually stems. There is therefore no other recourse left
_ _ for modern nations except to exterminate the Jew…
_ _ …we are forever members of the Aryan race. … Aboriginal
_ _ man, the Fuehrer believes, did not know the lie…
_ _ The nations that have been the first to see through the Jew and
_ _ have been the first to fight him are going to take his place in the
_ _ domination of the world.

Do you think Himmler “want[ed] those” Himmler “deemed more worthy to have more children and those deemed less to have less everywhere”?

2004 Kater
groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1126752603.953619.262940%40z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com
_ _ Himmler, a former chicken farmer…, was ruled by very
_ _ strong beliefs regarding the application of breeding
_ _ theories to humans-- by way of positive selection for the
_ _ “Aryans” and negative selection for their natural enemies,
_ _ the Slavs, Gypsies, and Jews.

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Hitler’s human breeding plan using [1871 Darwin]“careful selection” + mutations
groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1124684179.251743.95950%40o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com
groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1124731489.829229.220700%40g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com

Darwin on [1871 Darwin]“careful selection” in connection with the breeding of humans;
1924/5 Hitler & 1871 Darwin on heterogeneous & homogeneous peoples
groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1133977762.788382.143030%40g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com

an exercise: parallels between 1871 Darwin & 1924/5 Hitler?
groups.google.com/groups?selm=1134448996.907734.300780%40g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
4 more Hitler-Darwin parallels
groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1135092414.972723.104980%40g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com

Multi-Pronged Role of Darwinian Thought in Shoah’s Arrival
google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1132080322.482544.299440%40g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com

Hitler’s actions make sense given his atheism and eugenic, social Darwinist vision
groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1134145559.645139.229550%40f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com
 
40.png
davidford:
What are the 2 best lines of fossil record evidence for Darwin’s theory of natural selection?
What is your definition of a fossil?
Of a fossil record?

What makes a fossil line “best”?
Is “better” a more appropriate term to use than “best” in these type of comparisons?

Would all organisms have a similar likelyhood of begin fossilized? Would all fossils have a similar likelyhood of being found? How would this affect the record?
How is the completeness of the record affected by the number of fossils, by the climate at time of formation, or by the subsequent geological history?

What time period between fossil dates is acceptable?

What confidence interval do you need to include a fossil in one particular record or another?
40.png
davidford:
Do you consider it a “fact” that the U.S. is the best country ever?
What are your criteria and what are your data?

Would you choose life span, literacy, church attendance, HS graduation rate, per capita income, GDP, infant mortality, crime statistics, health coverage, social net, number of tanks…etc?

How would what you are trying to establish affect the criteria? the data you uinclude?

Would you take a weighted sum average of your criteria to determine “best”? What other tools could you use?

Are there immeasurable (or difficult to measure) attributes that could make one individual consider their nation better/best?

How would you deal those in your analysis?
 
Please davidford,
I agree in general with many of your points but I have to agree with PLP that changing your style to the suggestions he made below would be of a great service to the debate: 👍

PLP said:
davidford: Just as a tip: Your posts and positions would be much easier to read if you improved your formatting. Everything automatically word-wraps; you don’t have to put in a hard return near the end of each line in your text box.

Your composition style also could use some improvement. Simply dumping three pages of quotation following a short assertion is an unpersuasive style. It’s better to make points in your own words, and use short quotations (with proper attribution to their source) to support them. This will allow you to connect various points into a theme without losing the reader’s attention. I’d much rather address your points directly than get so bogged down in poor style that I lose the sense of your presentation.
 
40.png
Jasny:
Please davidford,
I agree in general with many of your points but I have to agree with PLP that changing your style to the suggestions he made below would be of a great service to the debate
“I agree in general with many of your [df’s] points”
You’re the only person that can discern any “points” in my posts.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top