Day of Worship and Christmas being pagan innovations

[aball1035]

I have 2 questions that I was hoping people could answer for me.

1. I was recently told that the Bible says that Saturday (Sabbath) is the proper day of Worship, not Sunday. The reason it was changed was because Constantine’s favorite pagan god was the “Unconquered Sun God”, who’s day was Sunday. He changed it in 321, and it has stayed that way ever since.
   I was also told that since God had given us the Sabbath, or Saturday as the day of worship, no man has the authority to change that, just like we can’t change the 10 Commandments. So if God says Saturday, who are we to say Sunday?
2. I was also told that Christmas was also a pagan invention, and the church adopted it from pagan traditions and incorporated it into their own religion.

I’m staying with what the Catholic Church has taught me, but I’d appreciate it if somebody could clear this up.
Thanks!

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I have 2 questions that I was hoping people could answer for me.

1. I was recently told that the Bible says that Saturday (Sabbath) is the proper day of Worship, not Sunday. The reason it was changed was because Constantine’s favorite pagan god was the “Unconquered Sun God”, who’s day was Sunday. He changed it in 321, and it has stayed that way ever since.
   I was also told that since God had given us the Sabbath, or Saturday as the day of worship, no man has the authority to change that, just like we can’t change the 10 Commandments. So if God says Saturday, who are we to say Sunday?
2. I was also told that Christmas was also a pagan invention, and the church adopted it from pagan traditions and incorporated it into their own religion.

I’m staying with what the Catholic Church has taught me, but I’d appreciate it if somebody could clear this up.
Thanks!

1. Baloney. Scripture itself speaks of the believers meeting on the Lord’s day (which is Sunday) during the time of the apostles, that is, nearly 300 years before Constantine. Christ Himself spoke of the Sabbath being made for man and not man for the Sabbath. . .I guess your SDA (at a guess) friends don’t feel that the Holy Spirit (you know, the one who came down on the apostles, the ones given authority to ‘bind and loose’ by Christ) leads the Catholic Church to all truth the way Scripture says. . .
2. Christmas is not a pagan invention. Do pagans HAVE Masses? No, they do not; Christmas is quite literally CHRIST’S MASS, that is, a Mass offered for Christ and to acknowledge our wonder and delight that He was born among us, incarnate Man yet living God. The date of December 25 was not the first or the only date when the early Church celebrated a memorial of Christ’s birth but there are many possible reasons which give it a ‘high’ status. First, it is a tradition among many magi or wise men or prophets that a prophet often dies on the anniversary of his conception. Well, we know Christ died during the Passover and while we don’t know the year, the date of March 25 makes perfect sense. Well, a child conceived on March 25 would be born. . .yes! born December 25. . .

There’s a lot of blether about ‘sol invictus’ but that was a ‘latecomer’. Face it, the end of December is (in the northern hemisphere) the time of the shortest day and the longest night and there have been all kinds of myths and legends. What better way to focus people’s minds AWAY from Mithras and false gods like that and to say, "Well, you were on the right track, it’s a special time but that’s because of CHRIST, the early legends were just foreshadowing Him!"

A word of advice. . .stay away from the SDA. And stick with the REAL Church, not one founded by ‘mere (wo)men’. . .

 

[Mintaka]

Jews worshipped on the Sabbath, the Seventh Day. Christians worshipped on the Lord’s Day, the Eighth Day.

And a big pain in the butt it was, for the early Christians. The Sabbath day was permitted to Jews to take off, in Roman law. Sunday was an ordinary workday, so Christians had to get up very early to go to Mass before work. Whenever there was a persecution, all that Roman law enforcement had to do was look for people gathering in groups on Sunday morning before sunrise. It was standard to forbid Christians to gather on Sundays, and for Christians to gather anyway.

Justin Martyr wrote in the 160’s, in his “First Apologia”, an explanation of Christian practices to the pagans, in the form of an appeal to the Emperor and Senate: "And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the overseer verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things.

"Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the overseer [the bishop] in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons.

"And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the overseer, who provides for the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need.

"But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead.”

 

[jcrichton]

I have 2 questions that I was hoping people could answer for me.

1. I was recently told that the Bible says that Saturday (Sabbath) is the proper day of Worship, not Sunday. The reason it was changed was because Constantine’s favorite pagan god was the “Unconquered Sun God”, who’s day was Sunday. He changed it in 321, and it has stayed that way ever since.
   I was also told that since God had given us the Sabbath, or Saturday as the day of worship, no man has the authority to change that, just like we can’t change the 10 Commandments. So if God says Saturday, who are we to say Sunday?
2. I was also told that Christmas was also a pagan invention, and the church adopted it from pagan traditions and incorporated it into their own religion.

I’m staying with what the Catholic Church has taught me, but I’d appreciate it if somebody could clear this up.
Thanks!

…the problem with these “purists” is that they do not see themselves as what they are: confused legalists who follow by the way of Balaam (aware of Yahweh’s Commandments but using his knowledge to procure material gains).

Let’s examine the argument against Christmas (both issue are old and I suspect are mostly reintroduced to negate the Church’s Authority); when I’ve spent all explanations I have asked the anti-Christ-mas rep to offer a date which he/she considers to be the right (or at least more so than Dec 25) and the argument is ended. I suspect that it is not that the Church has chosen Dec 25 (Christmas = Christ’s Mass) but that she is determined to celebrate the Incarnation of the Word (Immanuel = God-with-us).

Consider too that the Church celebrates Christ not as an excuse to throw away Doctrinal Teachings and engage in all sorts of orgies and depravities; rather, the Church celebrates the Birht of the Savior of the world: God’s Coming and Living among His Creation.

The Sabbath’s argument: have you noticed that those who swear to keep the Sabbath Holy fail miserably to do so? Their concern, again, it’s only my suspicion, is to reject the Church’s Authority. Here’s why they fail: ask any of them how many times they go to the Temple to make burnt offerings, grain offerings, oil offerings, and thanksgiving offerings?

They fail to comprehend what St. Paul explained that we are not to judge those who chose to celebrate the Lord (which is applicable to all three Persons of God) in a special day or during everyday of the week (psssst, the Church celebrates Mass everyday–and many times more than one time a day; shhhhh, keep this quiet, we do not want to allert the time keepers); the interesting thing is that the Sabbath (Day of Rest) was meant to relieve man of burden and to allow man to dedicate himself to the Worship of God during that very special period of rest.

They also fail to understand that Christ instituted a Church that went through changes as it formed her early identity and Doctrine; in the Acts of the Apostles we find a mini historical account of the various early developments in Church’s history–this includes the physical separation from the Jewish form of worship (which includes the Temple, synagogues, and the Mosaic Laws) and the introduction of both new terms and Doctrine (which includes the 'gathering and breaking of the Bread during the Lord’s Day: Sunday).

Two more things to consider:

a) Does anyone (those who celebrate birthdates–there are some religious/secularists that do not) really believes that he/she is the only one that celebrate his/her birthday on any particular day of the year? The only way this can be so is if a normal year would consist of “x” millions of days to accomodate the many millions of people who celebrate their birthdates; hence, the Church cannot appropriate a pagan celebration, copywrite it or whatever to make it hers! Conversely, in a pagan culture and amongst the illiterate visual aides and religious celebrations due tend to go far in promoting the Gospel of Christ; can we determine from our own spirituality that the Holy Spirit did not guide the Church into the creation of alternative means of proclaiming the Gospel?

b) Constantine is not the first (or last) politician to use the “religious” card; further, do we know God’s Way? Can God not use even the worst in man to bring about His Salvific Plan? Consider the Apostles, had the Jews and Romans not persecuted the Church would the Gospel have spread as fast and as far? Remember our previous Pope, John Paul II? Was he not molded by the very oppressive movement that sought to extinguish the Church? …God used him as a very visible sign of what man can do when we come together in peace (Catholics and non-Catholics, Jews and Arabs, wealthy and poor, young and old, intellectuals and the bearly educated–even self-professed atheists… all of these people came together, occupied adjacent space, breath the same air, respected each others’ rights and put away their personal agendas in order to celebrate the death of a man who represented Christ and loved and respected the human race!)… no, no matter how hard all of these claimers try, they cannot dismantle Christ’s Church by promoting suspicion and ijnuendo amongst themselves and in the Church!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[edwest2]

I invite everyone to read this article:

catholic.com/library/Is_Catholicism_Pagan.asp

Peace,
Ed

 

[pablope]

I have 2 questions that I was hoping people could answer for me.

1. I was recently told that the Bible says that Saturday (Sabbath) is the proper day of Worship, not Sunday. The reason it was changed was because Constantine’s favorite pagan god was the “Unconquered Sun God”, who’s day was Sunday. He changed it in 321, and it has stayed that way ever since.
   I was also told that since God had given us the Sabbath, or Saturday as the day of worship, no man has the authority to change that, just like we can’t change the 10 Commandments. So if God says Saturday, who are we to say Sunday?

I’m staying with what the Catholic Church has taught me, but I’d appreciate it if somebody could clear this up.
Thanks!

From the Didache…the earliest form in writing about the Teaching of the Apostles…earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html

Chapter 14. Christian Assembly on the Lord’s Day. But every Lord’s day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one who is at odds with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord: “In every place and time offer to me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great King, says the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the nations.”

 

[Spirithound]

I have 2 questions that I was hoping people could answer for me.

1. I was recently told that the Bible says that Saturday (Sabbath) is the proper day of Worship, not Sunday. The reason it was changed was because Constantine’s favorite pagan god was the “Unconquered Sun God”, who’s day was Sunday. He changed it in 321, and it has stayed that way ever since.
   I was also told that since God had given us the Sabbath, or Saturday as the day of worship, no man has the authority to change that, just like we can’t change the 10 Commandments. So if God says Saturday, who are we to say Sunday?
2. I was also told that Christmas was also a pagan invention, and the church adopted it from pagan traditions and incorporated it into their own religion.

1. Read St. Ignatius of Antioch’s letters. Sorry, I don’t remember which one, but it will tell you that the Christians’ day of worship is Sunday. This document dates from around 110 AD.
2. In this case it might be helpful to separate the idea of The Solemnity of the Nativity of the Lord from the date and various traditions. Regarding the idea, it seems quite obvious that if God was born onto Earth, He would have a birthday. Reaching just a little bit further, this might be a day, or at least a concept, that we might like to celebrate. Now, if we don’t actually know the day, why not pick a time when the people were doing something unsavory (that is, worshipping an idol), and instead let them worship God Incarnate. Remember, it was no accident the pagans picked that day for their pagan festival. Without a festival, winter really sucks.

 

[Asuka]

I can only attest to the second question, as I do know someone who is pagan.

There are many holiday’s aligned with pagan holidays. It is easier to get people to switch their holidays to something sacred than to take away the holiday completely. Here is a list, and the days they are celebrated for both:

Brigid’s day/Imbolic (Feburary 1/2), Candlemas (February 2)
Ostra/Spring Equinox (March 21/22/23), Easter (the Sunday after the first full moon after the Spring Equinox)
May day (May 1/2), Mary’s Month (May 1)
Midsummer/ Summer Solstice (June 21/22/23), Corpus Christi (Between the end of May and late June)
Lammas (August 1), The Catholic Church doesn’t deal with harvest celebrations as far as I can tell. That was more of a rural thing.
Mabon/ Autumn Equinox (September 22/23), Michaelmas (not celebrated by the Church any more, but was on September 26)
Samhain/ Halloween (October 31), All Saints Day (November 1)
Yule/ Winter Solstice (December 21/22/23), Christmas (December 25)

Interestingly enough, the Spring Equinox and Winter Solstice stories of the pagan calander are very similar to that of Christ’s being born (the sun god is born at the end of the longest night of the year), and his rebirth (while more of a stretch, the sun god is then considered a bright and growing boy to provide bounty for all during the coming season). I believe there is evidence that Christ was actually born around Easter, but I have nothing to back that up other than what I’ve heard from people. While I find all of this facinating, I’ve never taken a great amount of time studying it in the depth that I would like to. However, the dates are correct, even if some of the celebrations are outdated.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

I don’t know if the Catholic Church has ever said December 25 is the actual day Jesus was born. It is the day we celebrate the Feast Day of the Nativity (the Church’s name for the Holy Day commonly known as Christmas).

Birthdays are a fairly common innovation - in Christ’s time, it is probable that many people did not know their date of birth, as it was not used as an identifier and there were different calendars in use. If known, it probably would not have been considered remarkable or important, especially among the commonfolk, Even today, many people from the third World I’ve met don’t know their birthday and don’t see it as important, and even many eastern Christian cultures don’t celebrate an individual’s birthday with parties, gifts, cards, etc., instead they celebrate on the feast day of their name-sake saint, if at all. (That is changing with western cultural infiltration.) The Church has always considered Easter a far more important date to revere, and it is tied to a specific date (Passover).

The actual date of many feast-days are unknown, and the date we celebrate them either symbolic or were established to honor a later event, as the Feast of the Transfiguration is.
Christ may have been born on or around December 25, or it may have been chosen for the symbolic reasons cited by St. Augustine - the light of Christ increases and drives out darkness even as, from the winter solstice the length of sunlight begins to increase each day.

We have very early attestation to this from St. Augustine, what is the earliest original source for the whole “sol invictus” argument?

 

[jcrichton]

I don’t know if the Catholic Church has ever said December 25 is the actual day Jesus was born. It is the day we celebrate the Feast Day of the Nativity (the Church’s name for the Holy Day commonly known as Christmas).

Birthdays are a fairly common innovation - in Christ’s time, it is probable that many people did not know their date of birth, as it was not used as an identifier and there were different calendars in use. If known, it probably would not have been considered remarkable or important, especially among the commonfolk, Even today, many people from the third World I’ve met don’t know their birthday and don’t see it as important, and even many eastern Christian cultures don’t celebrate an individual’s birthday with parties, gifts, cards, etc., instead they celebrate on the feast day of their name-sake saint, if at all. (That is changing with western cultural infiltration.) The Church has always considered Easter a far more important date to revere, and it is tied to a specific date (Passover).

The actual date of many feast-days are unknown, and the date we celebrate them either symbolic or were established to honor a later event, as the Feast of the Transfiguration is.
Christ may have been born on or around December 25, or it may have been chosen for the symbolic reasons cited by St. Augustine - the light of Christ increases and drives out darkness even as, from the winter solstice the length of sunlight begins to increase each day.

We have very early attestation to this from St. Augustine, what is the earliest original source for the whole “sol invictus” argument?

EWTN televised “The Star of Bethlehem” …it’s some sort of lawyer who wondered about the issue of Christmas (Dec 25) as the actual Birth of Christ–it is fantastic… he makes references to the fact that astronomy is a math-based science that has been used to trace the movement of the stars/planets with exceptional accuracy… he marries the various historical accounts of important events made by various cultures and usesa sophisticated computer program to demonstrate the Birth of Jesus… regardless of the veracity/proof, my experience has been that those who object to the celebration of Christmas do so not because they are concerned with truth and accurracy but because they wish to remove the Celebration of Christ from the public view/consciousness.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[colefrank]

1. Baloney. Scripture itself speaks of the believers meeting on the Lord’s day (which is Sunday) during the time of the apostles, that is, nearly 300 years before Constantine. Christ Himself spoke of the Sabbath being made for man and not man for the Sabbath. . .I guess your SDA (at a guess) friends don’t feel that the Holy Spirit (you know, the one who came down on the apostles, the ones given authority to ‘bind and loose’ by Christ) leads the Catholic Church to all truth the way Scripture says. . .
2. Christmas is not a pagan invention. Do pagans HAVE Masses? No, they do not; Christmas is quite literally CHRIST’S MASS, that is, a Mass offered for Christ and to acknowledge our wonder and delight that He was born among us, incarnate Man yet living God. The date of December 25 was not the first or the only date when the early Church celebrated a memorial of Christ’s birth but there are many possible reasons which give it a ‘high’ status. First, it is a tradition among many magi or wise men or prophets that a prophet often dies on the anniversary of his conception. Well, we know Christ died during the Passover and while we don’t know the year, the date of March 25 makes perfect sense. Well, a child conceived on March 25 would be born. . .yes! born December 25. . .

There’s a lot of blether about ‘sol invictus’ but that was a ‘latecomer’. Face it, the end of December is (in the northern hemisphere) the time of the shortest day and the longest night and there have been all kinds of myths and legends. What better way to focus people’s minds AWAY from Mithras and false gods like that and to say, "Well, you were on the right track, it’s a special time but that’s because of CHRIST, the early legends were just foreshadowing Him!"

A word of advice. . .stay away from the SDA. And stick with the REAL Church, not one founded by ‘mere (wo)men’. . .

Isnt the lords day actually the sabbath though and in hebrews paul does talk about the sabbath rest and Jesus obeyed the sabbath as well. In the old testament it does specifically says to remember the sabbath and keep it holy and it says six days you shall work but the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord, your God.

 

[jcrichton]

Isnt the lords day actually the sabbath though and in hebrews paul does talk about the sabbath rest and Jesus obeyed the sabbath as well. In the old testament it does specifically says to remember the sabbath and keep it holy and it says six days you shall work but the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord, your God.

But Jesus is the Fulfillment ot the Law!

…if we were to follow the presciptions of the Mosaic Law, shouldn’t we go to the Temple to sacrifice (the practice is called to be done eternally)?

…shouldn’t we be joining the Jews in the synagogues for Sabbath Worship (that’s the regular place of worship)?

Christ is our Sabbath… hence, the Lord’s Day (Christ’s Resurrection Day) is our day of Rest (Sabbath)–as practiced by the very early Church (Acts 20:7).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Spirithound]

Isnt the lords day actually the sabbath though and in hebrews paul does talk about the sabbath rest and Jesus obeyed the sabbath as well. In the old testament it does specifically says to remember the sabbath and keep it holy and it says six days you shall work but the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord, your God.

The Acts of the Apostles (20:7) specifies that they met to break bread on the first day of the week, which is Sunday.