Deaconesses????

[filius_Immacula]

I saw a picture of syrian ordination and i saw deacons… And deaconesses. Cn you explain this tradition, i as a latin am a little confused. Also all respect to you, imnot trying to be disrespectful in anyway

 

[Thomas48]

By Syrian do you mean Syrian Catholic Church or a church of Syrian rite? If you could narrow it down, than we can find out which tradition this relates to.

 

[DCNBILL]

The Syriac Orthodox have deaconesses.

 

[filius_Immacula]

By Syrian do you mean Syrian Catholic Church or a church of Syrian rite? If you could narrow it down, than we can find out which tradition this relates to.

Syrian orthodox, but what is the theological basis for this. Isnt the diaconate a reflection on he priesthood? How long has his beenaround

 

[DCNBILL]

I believe it is a separate order from the deaconate, in the past they assisted in the baptism of women and other ministries. I believe now their function is in pastoral care and outreach but am not sure if they have any liturgical function.

Maybe someone from an Orthodox Church could help out.

 

[Vico]

I saw a picture of syrian ordination and i saw deacons… And deaconesses. Cn you explain this tradition, i as a latin am a little confused. Also all respect to you, imnot trying to be disrespectful in anyway

Deaconesses were ordained, however Holy Orders were clarified more recently in the Latin Church.
[Syria 380 A.D.] Deaconesses took up their functions through an *epithesis cheirôn *or imposition of hands that conferred the Holy Spirit,65 as did the lectors (*CA *8, 20, 22). The bishop pronounced the following prayer: "Eternal God, Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, creator of man and woman, who filled Myriam, Deborah, Anne and Hulda with your spirit; who did not deem it unworthy for your Son, the Only-Begotten, to be born of a woman; who in the tent of witness and in the temple did institute women as guardians of your sacred doors, look now upon your servant before you, proposed for the diaconate: grant her the Holy Spirit and purify her of all defilement of flesh and spirit so that she may acquit herself worthily of the office which has been entrusted to her, for your glory and to the praise of your Christ, through whom be glory and adoration to you, in the Holy Spirit, world without end. Amen."66

…

At Constantinople the best-known of the fourth-century deaconesses was Olympias, the superior of a monastery of women, who was a protegee of Saint John Chrysostom and had put her property at the service of the Church. She was “ordained” (cheirotonein) deaconess with three of her companions by the patriarch. Canon 15 of the Council of Chalcedon (451) seems to confirm the fact that deaconesses really were “ordained” by the imposition of hands (cheirotonia). Their ministry was called *leitourgia *and after ordination they were not allowed to marry.
vatican.va/roman_curia/co…conate_en.html

 

[Brendan]

Deaconesses were ordained, however Holy Orders were clarified more recently in the Latin Church.

Ordained does not, of necessity, mean imposition of Holy Orders.

Men were ordained into the Minor Orders of Lector, Reader, Porter etc… but they were never in Holy Orders until they received Diaconal Orders.

 

[Brendan]

Syrian orthodox, but what is the theological basis for this. Isnt the diaconate a reflection on he priesthood? How long has his beenaround

A Deaconess is not a female Deacon, it is a separate ministry. In the Western Church, it would more closely related to a Mother Superior of an Order that works with the poor.

 

[dochawk]

They exist in at least one Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Church even today.

The churches that have or had them seem divided on whether cheirotonein was/is used.

However, in all cases, they are not female deacons, but something else, with specific roles.

However, in at least one of these churches, the deaconesses would enter the Holy Place for Communion, along with the higher clergy.

hawk

 

[Vico]

Ordained does not, of necessity, mean imposition of Holy Orders.

Men were ordained into the Minor Orders of Lector, Reader, Porter etc… but they were never in Holy Orders until they received Diaconal Orders.

As can be verified by the fact that although the Latin Church still has the subdiaconate in the extraordinary form, the subdeacons are never laicized. No indelible mark is created for them when they are instituted.

 

[SyroMalankara]

I saw a picture of syrian ordination and i saw deacons… And deaconesses. Cn you explain this tradition, i as a latin am a little confused. Also all respect to you, imnot trying to be disrespectful in anyway

In the Syriac Churches (usually excluding Malankara), deaconess are blessed to sing in the choir and assist when no men are available.
In the Syriac Churches (including Malankara), all the male-only altar servers are ordained to the minor order of mzamrono (singer) of the Diaconate (see here: sor.cua.edu/Vestments/)

Practices are little bit more variant in the monastic setting, especially when the only male allowed is the priest celebrating Liturgy. This may extend from no servers to some form of assistance from nuns ordained to deaconess. The Abbess/Abbot (more common among non-Malankara) is almost equal in spiritual ‘rank’ to a bishop within her jurisdiction, she would have much more latitude on what actions she performs.

 

[filius_Immacula]

A Deaconess is not a female Deacon, it is a separate ministry. In the Western Church, it would more closely related to a Mother Superior of an Order that works with the poor.

So do deaconesses only exist in a monastic setting and what are there functions then?

 

[Draper]

As can be verified by the fact that although the Latin Church still has the subdiaconate in the extraordinary form, the subdeacons are never laicized. No indelible mark is created for them when they are instituted.

Men are no longer ordained as subdeacons in the Latin Rite – unless they are on their way to becoming deacons or priests.

The responsibility of the subdeacon in the EF Mass is typically handled by a deacon or a commissioned or instituted layman.

 

[malphono]

Men are no longer ordained as subdeacons in the Latin Rite – unless they are on their way to becoming deacons or priests.

Almost but not quite. The subdiaconate among the Latins remains only among those who follow the Usus Antiquior.

The responsibility of the subdeacon in the EF Mass is typically handled by a deacon or a commissioned or instituted layman.

In the absence of a true subdeacon, his liturgical role in the UA is usually handled by a priest or a “straw subdeacon” who is strictly a layman.

 

[Elizium23]

In the absence of a true subdeacon, his liturgical role in the UA is usually handled by a priest or a “straw subdeacon” who is strictly a layman.

Not just any layman.

 

[thinkandmull]

There was a Q&A answer on this forum awhile back on a Western Council that spoke of female deacon’s ordination. Does anyone have information on this?

 

[Vico]

There was a Q&A answer on this forum awhile back on a Western Council that spoke of female deacon’s ordination. Does anyone have information on this?

First Council of Orange (441).It should be pointed out that in the West there is no trace of any deaconesses for the first five centuries. The *Statuta Ecclesiae antiqua *laid down that the instruction of women catechumens and their preparation for baptism was to be entrusted to the widows and women religious “chosen *ad ministerium baptizandarum mulierum”. 71 *Certain councils of the fourth and fifth centuries reject every *ministerium feminae 72 *and forbid any ordination of deaconesses. 73 According to the *Ambrosiaster * (composed at Rome at the end of the fourth century), the female diaconate was an adjunct of Montanist (“Cataphrygian”) heretics. 74 In the sixth century women admitted into the group of widows were sometimes referred to as deaconesses. To prevent any confusion the Council of Epaone forbade “the consecrations of widows who call themselves deaconesses”. 75 The Second Council of Orleans (533) decided to exclude from communion women who had “received the blessing for the diaconate despite the canons forbidding this and who had remarried”. 76 Abbesses, or the wives of deacons, were also called *diaconissae, *by analogy with *presbyterissae or even * episcopissae. 77

71 Cf. can. 100 (Munier, 99). In addition, it is expressly forbidden to women, “even well-instructed and holy” ones, to teach men and to baptize (cf. can. 37, 41; Munier, 86).

72 Council of Nimes (394-396), can. 2. Cf. J. Gaudemet, *Conciles gaulois du IVe siecle, *SCh 241 (Paris, 1977), 127-29.

73 First Council of Orange (441), can. 26.

74 Cf. ed. H.I. Vogels, CSEL 81/3 (Vienna, 1969), 268.

             75 Council of Epaone (517), can. 21 (C. de Clercq, *Concilia Galliae 511-695, * 250: 148A [1963], 29). Blessings of women as deaconesses had become widespread  because the ritual did not provide a blessing for widows, as was noted in the  Second Council of Tours (567), can. 21 (ibid., 187).

76 Ibid., 101.

             77 Cf. Second Council of Tours, can. 20 (ibid., 184).

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_pro_05072004_diaconate_en.html

 

[MorEphrem]

Men were ordained into the Minor Orders of Lector, Reader, Porter etc… but they were never in Holy Orders until they received Diaconal Orders.

Depends who you ask, and that’s really a very recent, canon law distinction (which in my opinion is an exclusively Latin thing to begin with). Cantors, lectors and subdeacons are all considered mshamshone (=deacons) in Syriac, and even according to Maronite canon law as soon as you’re ordained a cantor you’re incardinated into a diocese as a cleric. In fact, in the Syriac ritual (if I remember correctly) you receive an imposition of hands after being tonsured as a cantor, and then there’s an imposition of hands (with the bishop having one hand on the eucharist and the other on the candidate for some prayers, and in others the bishop makes the gesture of an epiclesis from the Mysteries to the candidate) for every subsequent order.

I think Vico is on point about his explanation of deaconesses, though.

 

[malphono]

Depends who you ask, and that’s really a very recent, canon law distinction (which in my opinion is an exclusively Latin thing to begin with). Cantors, lectors and subdeacons are all considered mshamshone (=deacons) in Syriac, and even according to Maronite canon law as soon as you’re ordained a cantor you’re incardinated into a diocese as a cleric. In fact, in the Syriac ritual (if I remember correctly) you receive an imposition of hands after being tonsured as a cantor, and then there’s an imposition of hands (with the bishop having one hand on the eucharist and the other on the candidate for some prayers, and in others the bishop makes the gesture of an epiclesis from the Mysteries to the candidate) for every subsequent order.

All very true but the term “incardination” itself is a bit problematic. Traditionally, a candidate was received (and subsequently ordained to whichever Order) for the “holy altar of [insert name of the local church]” and not for a diocese. He was bound to the service of that church unless he was released by the bishop (or Patriarch). In the case of Minor Orders, that release could have been to another location, or to a monastery, or to the abandonment of ecclesiastical service. But a cleric was never “transferred” by episcopal fiat. A bishop might ask a man to move to another town, but could not force him to do so.

In the case of Major Orders, it was similar, at least insofar as married deacons and priests were concerned. Celibates could be “transferred” but even so, the very existence of a celibate secular clergy is itself a latinization.

 

[thinkandmull]

I specifically remember something on this forum about a Catholic Council speaking of a certain kind of ordination for the female deacons, but that this was not sacramental