Death and God's Will

[Robert_in_SD]

paul barlow:

i find your understanding of the attonement flawed christ came to take away the impacts of sin. he died that we may live and in the garden he willingly sorry about the spelling. took the worlds sins onto himself. i know your church does not teach this but to me a humble person it makes more sense that the saviour of the world would remove both stumbling blocks not just one.

My own personal understanding of the atonement may be in question, but the Church’s teaching is not. Like Tmaque, I too have read the Gospels and prayed and received the answer that the Catholic teaching is correct. The CCC states it better than I could:

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.41

40 Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1529.
41 Rom 3:21-26.

Christ did not offer himself as a living victim in the garden at Gethsemani. And many of the prophecies from the OT fortelling of the Messiah’s death had not been fullfilled as of the time Jesus left Gethsemani under arrest by the authorities. Indeed, the curtain in the temple remained intact until His death on the Cross. His garments were not yet divided and sold. He was unpierced by the spear. His head was uncrowned. How on earth could one come to the conclusion that the atonement was somehow complete at Gethsemani? Is that LDS doctrine or is it just LDS theological speculation and conjecture?

As an aside, an interesting description of the Gethsemani garden at this link for any who are interested…

Gethsemani

 

[catholic-rcia]

Do you as Mormons read the Old Testament? “Sacrifices” The Passover Lamb? Etc….

The Connections are breath taking when it comes to what took place on the Cross, to understanding the Cross. In the garden Jesus felt what we all feel at the same time when confronted with our own mortality. He allowed this to happen so that we could better relate to Him in our own time of distress and fear. But the Cross he was to bear, oh my God Paul wake up. It was your sin and it was my sin that crucified Jesus, not someone else’s in a distant past. He took your sin to death with Him and buried it far below. I like to visualize Him giving all the sins of the world back to Satan in a very large bag. But He had to die in order to accomplish this. Then He rose for you Paul so that you to could have an eternal life with Him. Not with your mother or your father or your family or even with your wife if you are indeed married, but to be with Him, Him being your ultimate goal and desire. In Him you will find the others.

Are you not taught that your baptism is a baptism into the death of Christ, so that you can be raised in Christ? It is in the sufferings of Christ that you will be found where you will be awakened. When you can realize what you have done, what you have failed to do, what he has done for you in spite of yourself than you will see a much taller God in Jesus. But you first must become smaller as He Himself did for you, what I mean by that is you must go down on your knees and realize what your very own sin has done to your God, your Savior, your only hope and realize who he has forgiven. It is at the foot of the Cross that one is born again.

The Cross is the greatest symbol for all Christians. Satan hates the cross and the Mass because they are perpetual reminders of his defeat. The Cross in the Catholic Church, with Christ in his agony reminds us of our sin, what we have done, what we have failed to do, and what Christ has done for us. We ask the Church, all the saints and angels to pray for each of us to the Lord our God. That Crucifix shows us how much our God loves us by laying down His life for us. By pouring out His love and mercy to all who come face to face with their own sin, He teaches us forgiveness. The Cross teaches us humility, which is the opposite of pride. It reminds us of who Christ is, and who we are. “Jesus came to pay a debt He didn’t owe, because we owed a debt we couldn’t pay” - Unknown. (Lk. 9:23-25, Col. 2:14, Eph. 2:16, Col. 1:21-23, Mk. 10:21)

We would not have the resurection without the crucifixion
God Bless
Catholic-rcia

 

[ben_dy]

catholic-rcia:

I ask the Catholics on this forum, why would the LDS Church make the Garden the place of our atonement rather than the Passion as a whole, His death on the Cross?
Why would this be misleading and wrong?

C-RCIA,

The position of the LDS church does say that Christ’s atonement was completed by his death on the cross but there is far more emphasis on ‘the agony in the garden’ as recorded in the in Luke’s account in 22:44. Here’s a quote from the www.mormon.org website under ‘atonement’.

Atonement

It is impossible to put into words the full meaning of the Atonement, which is the most important event in the history of the world. Through His suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane and on the cross, the Savior atoned for our sins. This is the good news for all people!

We can’t fully understand how Jesus suffered for our sins. But we know that in the Garden of Gethsemane, the weight of our sins caused Him to feel such agony that He bled from every pore (Luke 22:39–44). {emphasis mine}

Later, as He hung upon the cross, Jesus willingly suffered painful death by one of the most cruel methods ever known.

The Savior tells us:

For behold, I . . . have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer . . . even as I. [Doctrine and Covenants 19:16–17]

Jesus Christ did what only He could do in atoning for our sins. To make His Atonement fully effective in our individual lives, we must have faith in Christ, repent of our sins, be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, obey God’s commandments, and strive to become like Him. As we do these things through His Atonement, we can return to live with Him and our Heavenly Father forever.

I think it’s important to remember one thing about Luke 22, verses 43 and 44: they are ‘later additions’ to the Gospel, not found in the earliest or the most widely dispersed manuscripts (and do not even appear in the Revised Standard Version). So then it’s important to actually read the English translations…

Luke 22 Verse 44​

King James Version (Authorized):

Luke 22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.​

The New King James Version:

Luke 22:44 And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground.​

The New Revised Standard Version: (notes that “Other ancient authorities lack verses 43 and 44”):

Luke 22:44 In his anguish he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat became like great drops of blood falling down on the ground.​

The New American Bible: (which notes of verses [43-44] These verses, though very ancient, were probably not part of the original text of Luke. They are absent from the oldest papyrus manuscripts of Luke and from manuscripts of wide geographical distribution.)

Luke 22:44 He was in such agony and he prayed so fervently that his sweat became like drops of blood falling on the ground.​

The Douay-Rheims Bible (which provides the closest interpretation in which actual blood could be construed to have formed):

Luke 22:44 And his sweat became as drops of blood, trickling down upon the ground.

Now, as I read it in the English translations, this errant verse I wish that I knew Greek so that I might see what manner in which “as” and “like” are used - I do know that the 17th century English with the usage of “as it were” in the KJV meant then, as now, simply “in a manner of speaking” and not in a literal case. Perhaps a NT Greek scholar will come to my rescue.

Of one thing I am certain, however: no Gospel speaks of Christ bleeding “from every pore” and had there been a Christ sodden in blood in the garden this surely would have deserved comment for not only would it have been a miracle worth mentioning but it would have made the job of the guards and soldiers, even in the dark with their torches and lamps, simple.

So I am not certain why the LDS church places such great emphasis on the agony in the garden over the sacrifice of the Cross, nor am I sure from where the teaching that Christ “bled from every pore” comes from.

I would, however, be interested in hearing from an LDS member who can explain the bleeding from every pore belief as well as the emphasis on atonement reaching some level of importance as great or greater than the actual entire Passion of Christ (the beginning of which can be argued but the end of which cannot) culminating in His sacrifice on the Cross.

 

[catholic-rcia]

He was pierced for our transgression, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, by His wounds we are healed ISAIAH 53:5

“Around the sweat glands, there are multiple blood vessels in a net-like form.” Under the pressure of great stress the vessels constrict. Then as the anxiety passes “the blood vessels dilate to the point of rupture. The blood goes into the sweat glands.” As the sweat glands are producing a lot of sweat, it pushes the blood to the surface - coming out as droplets of blood mixed with sweat. It is rare but it has occurred several times to those under extreme stress… Author Unknown

What was the source of Jesus’ great stress and anguish? Clearly he was in intense spiritual agony. Being the Son of God, he would have in detail everything that was about to happen to him. He knew that he was physically facing one of the most horrible forms of capital punishment there has ever been. His body was human, and he would feel everything at least as intensely as we would. Was this the source of his severe stress? No, not even in the slightest.

The really great weight upon Jesus was the knowledge that he would soon bear the terrible trauma of taking the guilt (Galatians 6:14) for all of our sins upon him (1 Corinthians 1:18)

– my sins and yours (Colossians 1:20) He knew that under this weight of sin, the Father would forsake him and thus he would endure a form of hell itself for lost sinners.
As powerful as Jesus is, he could easily have avoided all of this and simply disappeared. He could have brought down a Legion of angels to protect him. He could have made his skin impenetrable. He could have anesthetized his pain so that he felt nothing. But he chose to do none of these things. Rather, he willingly chose to genuinely be “wounded for our transgressions” and “bruised for our iniquities” so that he could truly pay (Colossians 2:14) for our sins and suffer human death. Thus the devil would be defeated by way of the Cross ( Ephesians 2:16)

“…He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He opened not His mouth; He was led (Luke 9:23 ) as a lamb (Philippians 3:1) to the slaughter, And as a sheep before its shearers is silent, So He opened not His mouth.” (Isaiah 53:5,7,) …author unknown

"Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.” Mark 10:21

“… he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.” Matthew 10:38

“Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.” 1 Corinthians 1:17

Hebrews 12:2

Galatians 6:12****