death before the fall?

[Daniel_Marsh]

Bible Verse: Genesis 9:3, Romans 5:12; 1 Corinthians 15:21-22; 1 Corinthians 15:26; Genesis 1:29-30; Genesis 9:3.

This picture illustrates the fact that if someone believes in millions of years of Earth’s history and/or evolution, then death, bloodshed, disease, and suffering occurred before man’s existence. However, if someone believes in the Creation account as written in the book of Genesis, then death, bloodshed, disease, and suffering of man and animals is a consequence of sin.

If a person takes the Bible consistently from Genesis to Revelation, interpreting Scripture with Scripture, then he or she really can come to no other conclusion than **death, bloodshed, disease, and suffering of the ‘nephesh’ animals and man is a consequence of sin. **

Genesis 1:29-30 makes it obvious that originally, animals and man were vegetarian. Some would say therefore that plants died before sin. However, the Bible in Genesis 1 makes it clear that animals and man have a ‘nephesh’-that is, a ‘life spirit,’ or soul. Plants do not have this. Plants were given for food-they are not living in the same sense that animals are. Man was told he could eat animals after the Flood in Genesis 9:3. Romans 5:12 and 1 Corinthians 15:21-22 make it clear that death came into the world because of sin.

Some people try to say that this death only refers to man, and not to the animals. However, it is clear from taking the whole of Scripture that animals were vegetarian (like man) before the Fall, and understanding the Biblical doctrine of the atonement (as will be discussed in a future illustration) there could be no animal death or bloodshed before the Fall either.

1 Corinthians 15:26 calls death an enemy. Death is an intrusion. Some try to make out that this death is only ‘spiritual’ death and not ‘physical’ death. However, the Bible verses cited make it clear that Christ’s death on the Cross is related to the death that came into the world because of the first man’s sin. This was a physical death. When Adam sinned, man died spiritually in the sense that he was separated from God, and he also began to die physically.

answersingenesis.org/home/area/overheads/pages/oh20010713_53.asp

How do we refute these claims?

 

[Della]

If a person takes the Bible consistently from Genesis to Revelation, interpreting Scripture with Scripture, then he or she really can come to no other conclusion than death, bloodshed, disease, and suffering of the ‘nephesh’ animals and man is a consequence of sin.

The Church never has used this methodology of “interpreting Scripture with Scripture” alone (as implied in the above statement) in formulating its teachings, and is always open to the discoveries of science. It is Fundamentalists who insist on using the Bible alone to proof or disproof what they believe, not the Catholic Church.

 

[Liberian]

answersingenesis.org/home/area/overheads/pages/oh20010713_53.asp

How do we refute these claims?

Daniel,

Given that Genesis 1 and following are not necessarily to be taken literally, this is not really a problem for Catholics.

Beyond that, I would suggest–strictly as speculation–a process called “temporal reverse engineering.” I got the idea from the last book in Douglas Adams’ Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy series (not usually a good source for philosophical ideas, but it’s the best I can do). The gist of it is that the effects of the Fall worked their way backwards in time as well as forwards. I haven’t spent much time working out the details but offer it for what it’s worth.

• Liberian

 

[Donald45]

The first thing to note is that AnswersInGenesis is a fundamentalist Protestant website that employs a radically literalistic (though selectively so), sola Scriptura approach to the Bible which is contrary to that typically affirmed by the Catholic Church. This is particularly evident in its interpretation of Genesis 1 and 2. Catholics will want to be cautious in drawing their theological and scientific views from such dubious sources.

This having been said, there are other internet sources available on the subject of pre-fall animal death which one may find helpful. Now, I should mention that these are also Protestant sites, and hold both theological and scientific positions which I would consider entirely erroneous. However, I find many of their arguments for pre-fall animal mortality to be both helpful and persuasive. They should at least serve as a balancing influence to the opinions of AnswersInGenesis.

reasons.org/resources/apologetics/other_papers/animal_death_before_the_fall.shtml

reasons.org/resources/apologetics/other_papers/creature_mortality.shtml

home.entouch.net/dmd/death.htm

home.entouch.net/dmd/death1.htm

godandscience.org/youngearth/death.html

answersincreation.org/print/death.pdf

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Can you say chocolate, I know you can.

A funny line I heard on wmuz the other days was that sharks eat seaweed before the fall.

 

[tjmiller]

The Bible does not give us to understand that no death of any kind occurred before the Fall of Man. The only true death is the Death of Man, as only Man is endowed with a spiritual and immortal Soul. It is only this death of which Scripture tells us. The Bible is not an account of every living being, but an Account of Man and God.

 

[anawim]

answersingenesis.org/home/area/overheads/pages/oh20010713_53.asp

How do we refute these claims?

Of the passages that you use above, the only one that the Catholic Church has dogmatically weighed in on, is Rom. 5:12. Trent declared that it is referring to original sin. While the first two chapters of Genesis have multi-layered meanings, Paul was not into writing poetic literary genre. He was into writing deep theological truths. I would say that nothing died before the fall.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

so basically “spiritual death” ok.

 

[marysson]

Daniel Marsh:

so basically “spiritual death” ok.

Just to throw this out there…but you don’t have to refute that position as a Catholic. Some Catholics hold that view and they are allowed to do so, if they find it convincing.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Hi marysson, how many days after the fall did both Adam and Eve physically die?

Did not God say, “this day”?

 

[anawim]

Daniel Marsh:

Hi marysson, how many days after the fall did both Adam and Eve physically die?

Did not God say, “this day”?

Gen. 5:5 tells us that he lived 930 years. His death in the garden was spiritual in nature.

 

[langlob]

On a similar line of thinking, what about the fossil evidence we have that cancer and natural disaster occured before the Fall? Cancer is a clear deviation/degeneration of what is good. It is like rust to a car, all it does is destroy. So with that in mind, how could God possibly say that His creation was “good” (Gen 1:31)? Are we to believe that He created such things as death, disaster and disease before the Fall, and then called His creation “good”?

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

arn’t you imposing your idea of good unto God?

death is simply seperation of body and spirit, the spirit goes to be with God.

Maybe it is possible that God sees our spirit going to heaven as good.

 

[RyanL]

langlob:

Cancer is a clear deviation/degeneration of what is good. It is like rust to a car, all it does is destroy. So with that in mind, how could God possibly say that His creation was “good” (Gen 1:31)? Are we to believe that He created such things as death, disaster and disease before the Fall, and then called His creation “good”?

Are they necessarily “bad”? Does not sickness create weakness, and weakness create reliance, and reliance create trust? Does not trust in turn teach us about faith, and faith the nature of the end to which we were created? Invincibility would then seem to be a “bad” because if we were invincible, we would have no need to trust in anything outside ourselves - which does not serve to teach us the end to which we were created. And death - what is “bad” about death? Does it not unite us to God? Does it not teach us that we are not the sum total of all meaning? Does this not help us to discern the proper nature of our relationship to God?

Perhaps your view of “good” and “bad” is a bit limited.

Rom 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him…

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[davethecatholic]

RyanL:

Are they necessarily “bad”? Does not sickness create weakness, and weakness create reliance, and reliance create trust? Does not trust in turn teach us about faith, and faith the nature of the end to which we were created? Invincibility would then seem to be a “bad” because if we were invincible, we would have no need to trust in anything outside ourselves - which does not serve to teach us the end to which we were created. And death - what is “bad” about death? Does it not unite us to God? Does it not teach us that we are not the sum total of all meaning? Does this not help us to discern the proper nature of our relationship to God?

Perhaps your view of “good” and “bad” is a bit limited.

Rom 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him…

God Bless,
RyanL

Ryan L,

Well said!!

2 Corinthians 5: 1 - “For we know, if our earthly house of this habitation be dissolved, that we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in heaven.”

 

[Viki59]

langlob:

how could God possibly say that His creation was “good” (Gen 1:31)? Are we to believe that He created such things as death, disaster and disease before the Fall, and then called His creation “good”?

Death, disaster and disease are not things that God created, they are the absence or failure of things. He created animals mortal, and when they come to the end of their lives they die. Not necessarily a bad thing.
Volcanos erupt, continents shift, storms come, all part of the natural world. Accidents happen. God could choose to undo every accident’s effects as soon as it happened, or He could allow natural consequences. It’s part of creating a world full of real things. You can build a house with bricks or trip over one and break your leg.
The world is very good, even fallen as it is.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

No Second Law equates to No Decay equates to No Work equates to No Growth

Without the Second Law, Adam and Eve would not even have a garden to harvest from.