Death means sleep....

[Truth_Seeker123]

No immediate Heaven…The only time the dead will raise is during/after Christ’s second coming. (1st and 2nd resurrection) If the dead goes immediately somewhere, then there is no reason for His second coming.

Job 7:21 And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be

Psalms 13:3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Thessalonians 4:14, 15 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

1 Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

 

[JonNC]

No immediate Heaven…The only time the dead will raise is during/after Christ’s second coming. (1st and 2nd resurrection) If the dead goes immediately somewhere, then there is no reason for His second coming.

Job 7:21 And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be

Psalms 13:3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Thessalonians 4:14, 15 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

1 Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

Just curious, how do you account for Moses appearing at the Transfiguration, and Christ’s own words, “Today you will be with me in Paradise”?

Jon

 

[zach_dunn]

No immediate Heaven…The only time the dead will raise is during/after Christ’s second coming. (1st and 2nd resurrection) If the dead goes immediately somewhere, then there is no reason for His second coming.

Job 7:21 And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be

Psalms 13:3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Thessalonians 4:14, 15 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

1 Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

Matthew 27:52 tells you explicitly that you are wrong:

Matthew 27:52-53
“52 And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints that had slept arose, 53 And coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, came into the holy city, and appeared to many.”

So, yeah, it’s pretty self explanatory.

 

[Truth_Seeker123]

Matthew 27:52 tells you explicitly that you are wrong:

Matthew 27:52-53
“52 And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints that had slept arose, 53 And coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, came into the holy city, and appeared to many.”

So, yeah, it’s pretty self explanatory.

You actually proved me right…Death means sleep.

The point of the thread was to say that after we die, we do not go immediately anywhere. We are simply asleep until resurrected, whether the 1st resurrection, 2nd resurrection, or like when Jesus resurrected Moses and took him to Heaven. In that case, Moses represented those who will be raised from the dead at the second appearing of Jesus.

 

[Big_Ro]

No immediate Heaven…The only time the dead will raise is during/after Christ’s second coming. (1st and 2nd resurrection) If the dead goes immediately somewhere, then there is no reason for His second coming.

I’m wondering what you mean by 1st and 2nd Resurrection. I take it you are referring to the primary resurrection of Christ which we celebrate at Easter. I can only presume that the 2nd would the the Second Coming of Christ.

Having said that, I tend to agree that, except for the Saints and the Patriarchs, all others remain in sleep. I have to say that I don’t think that our human concept of past, present, and future is necessarily God’s understanding. IMHO, past, present, and future occur simultaneously in God’s mind.

I want to also address the responder that suggested that the presence of Moses at the Transfiguration undermines the assertion. As Catholics, we must be wary that we do not fall in to the trap of accepting popular interpretations of the Faith without taking the time to research what the official position of the Church might be. I know that I myself labored under a false assumption on this subject for too long.

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church 676, we reject the concept of Premillenialism, The idea that Christ will return and reign with the Saints on earth for a thousand years then after that period render judgement. It is simply not supported by scripture. We also do not believe that scripture supports the idea of postmillenialism. The idea that the entire world will come to accept Christ and a period of a thousand years of peace and tranquility will occur and after that Christ appears to end the world. The Premillenial position is currently quite popular among evangelical and fundementalist groups. Their influence on the popular culture, the main stream media, and in politics as well as on too many unwitting Catholics has undermined our faith in no small way.

The traditional position of the Cathoic Church and indeed most Christians including the original Protestant Reformers has been one of Amillenialism. We believe that Rev. 20 should be interpreted symbolically. Christ is currently reigning in Heaven along with the Saints and on earth through the work of the Church. “The millennium is a golden age not when compared to the glories of the age to come, but in comparison to all prior ages of human history, in which the world was swallowed in pagan darkness. Today, a third of the human race is Christian and even more than that have repudiated pagan idols and embraced the worship of the God of Abraham.” So, the way I read it both the position that the dead continue to slumber in joyful patience for the coming of our saviour and that the Saints reign in heaven with Christ are correct.

Here’s the link: catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp

 

[agent_grey]

Death means your body is dead.

Those that eat the flesh and drink the blood of the lamb are raised those that don’t are sent to hell. The only other group are those that believed but did not know; communion was unavailable for them. These are the priest as they shall die as Christ died and be raised as Christ was raised.

 

[LutheranDK]

Just curious, how do you account for Moses appearing at the Transfiguration, and Christ’s own words, “Today you will be with me in Paradise”?

Jon

The question regarding Moses and Elijah is a good one.

clears throat and adjusts glasses
Ahem…

The next is not just as good - the Greek text has no punctuation (and by “the Greek text”, I’m of course referring to the manuscripts, not the modern collections of them) had no punctuation, no spaces, no commas, no paragraphs.
(which is one of the reasons I’m glad I didn’t live back then )

It is, therefore, not 100% clear whether Jesus said:

1: “…I tell you: Today you will be with me in Paradise”
or
2: “…I tell you today. You will be with me in Paradise”

A contextual reading of the NT would seem to indicate #1, since the expression “Truly I tell you today” is not (to my knowledge) found anywhere else in the NT
Furthermore, one would have expected Luke to have written

"σήμερον* λέγω μετ’ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ. "
instead of
"λέγω, σήμερον μετ’ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ. "

In other words: It’s NORMAL as far as I know for the temporal adverb to be placed before the verb if said adverb is meant to be contemporary with the verb - but then again: No rule without exception.

In short: I’d bet on #1 too, but #2 cannot be ruled out completely from the text…

Sorry - it is the occupational hazard of being a theologian

• “today”

 

[Truth_Seeker123]

The question regarding Moses and Elijah is a good one.

clears throat and adjusts glasses
Ahem…

The next is not just as good - the Greek text has no punctuation (and by “the Greek text”, I’m of course referring to the manuscripts, not the modern collections of them) had no punctuation, no spaces, no commas, no paragraphs.
(which is one of the reasons I’m glad I didn’t live back then )

It is, therefore, not 100% clear whether Jesus said:

1: “…I tell you: Today you will be with me in Paradise”
or
2: “…I tell you today. You will be with me in Paradise”

A contextual reading of the NT would seem to indicate #1, since the expression “Truly I tell you today” is not (to my knowledge) found anywhere else in the NT
Furthermore, one would have expected Luke to have written

"σήμερον* λέγω μετ’ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ. "
instead of
"λέγω, σήμερον μετ’ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ. "

In other words: It’s NORMAL as far as I know for the temporal adverb to be placed before the verb if said adverb is meant to be contemporary with the verb - but then again: No rule without exception.

In short: I’d bet on #1 too, but #2 cannot be ruled out completely from the text…

Sorry - it is the occupational hazard of being a theologian

• “today”

Just to add my two cents on the subject…

A lot of people try to use Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

But here we go. Jesus died, rested, and rose. If Jesus would have meant that exact day then he would be a liar and we know that Jesus is perfect and can’t lie.

By saying to day shalt thou be with me, he is saying today you have gained eternal life. How can Jesus take the thief to Heaven that day when Jesus did not go directly to Heaven. If he went straight to Heaven, why did he raise on the third day? That would mean a contradiction in scripture and we know that God is not the author of confusion.

Just from my studies…

 

[Techno2000]

No immediate Heaven…The only time the dead will raise is during/after Christ’s second coming. (1st and 2nd resurrection) If the dead goes immediately somewhere, then there is no reason for His second coming.

Job 7:21 And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be

Psalms 13:3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Thessalonians 4:14, 15 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

1 Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

jesus-passion.com/THE_PASSION6.htm#CHAPTER%20LIX

 

[adrift]

Just to add my two cents on the subject…

A lot of people try to use Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

But here we go. Jesus died, rested, and rose. If Jesus would have meant that exact day then he would be a liar and we know that Jesus is perfect and can’t lie.

By saying to day shalt thou be with me, he is saying today you have gained eternal life. How can Jesus take the thief to Heaven that day when Jesus did not go directly to Heaven. If he went straight to Heaven, why did he raise on the third day? That would mean a contradiction in scripture and we know that God is not the author of confusion.

Just from my studies…

The problem I see is that Paradise is being equated with heaven. Are they one and the same? Abraham’s Bosom is referred to as paradise but it wasn’t heaven.

Then we have 1 Peter 3:

18
For Christ also suffered 5 for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit.
19
In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison,

Where was it that Jesus preached to the prisoners. Paradise? It would seem that it was the same as Abraham’s Bosom.

 

[benidict]

No immediate Heaven…The only time the dead will raise is during/after Christ’s second coming. (1st and 2nd resurrection) If the dead goes immediately somewhere, then there is no reason for His second coming.

Job 7:21 And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be

Psalms 13:3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Thessalonians 4:14, 15 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

1 Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

ah, but if you study the Churc fathers, such as clement in his letter to the corinthians. who was a desciple of the apostles, then you will see that he believed the peter and paul had gone to heaven and to their reward that was laid up for those that love the Lord. God is not the God of the dead. but of the Living. you do not know ancient Church teaching or the bible. what about the great cloud of witnesses found in hebrews, or the martyred saints in revelation? look forward to a discourse on this. peace.

 

[benidict]

The question regarding Moses and Elijah is a good one.

clears throat and adjusts glasses
Ahem…

The next is not just as good - the Greek text has no punctuation (and by “the Greek text”, I’m of course referring to the manuscripts, not the modern collections of them) had no punctuation, no spaces, no commas, no paragraphs.
(which is one of the reasons I’m glad I didn’t live back then )

It is, therefore, not 100% clear whether Jesus said:

1: “…I tell you: Today you will be with me in Paradise”
or
2: “…I tell you today. You will be with me in Paradise”

A contextual reading of the NT would seem to indicate #1, since the expression “Truly I tell you today” is not (to my knowledge) found anywhere else in the NT
Furthermore, one would have expected Luke to have written

"σήμερον* λέγω μετ’ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ. "
instead of
"λέγω, σήμερον μετ’ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ. "

In other words: It’s NORMAL as far as I know for the temporal adverb to be placed before the verb if said adverb is meant to be contemporary with the verb - but then again: No rule without exception.

In short: I’d bet on #1 too, but #2 cannot be ruled out completely from the text…

Sorry - it is the occupational hazard of being a theologian

• “today”

hello lutheran, i love it when an authority on the greek shows up on these threads. it clarifies so many issues, and its edifying.peace to you.

 

[Xavierlives]

I always loved arguing this one with my pastor.

 

[Techno2000]

No immediate Heaven…The only time the dead will raise is during/after Christ’s second coming. (1st and 2nd resurrection) If the dead goes immediately somewhere, then there is no reason for His second coming.

Job 7:21 And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be

Psalms 13:3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Thessalonians 4:14, 15 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

1 Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

Gospel According to Saint Luke
Chapter 15

What man of you that hath an hundred sheep: and if he shall lose one of them, doth he not leave the ninety-nine in the desert, and go after that which was lost, until he find it? And when he hath found it, lay it upon his shoulders, rejoicing:

And coming home, call together his friends and neighbours, saying to them: Rejoice with me, because I have found my sheep that was lost? I say to you, that even so there shall be joy in heaven upon one sinner that doth penance, more than upon ninety-nine just who need not penance.