Death

[Assyrian412]

From my understanding, the Church teaches that the final judgement involves the bodily resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. Those in the book of life receive eternal paradise and the wicked are thrown into hell. Both have their spirits and bodies rejoined.

The Church teaches that death is the separation of the body and spirit. However, John 3:16 states, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

However, if those in hell have their body and spirit in tact, are they not, by the definition of the Church, experiencing eternal life? Obviously the quality of life would be horrible but still eternal life… it seems like a contradiction.

Thoughts?

 

[Glassjester]

whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

At that point, won’t they too believe in Him?

 

[Assyrian412]

At that point, won’t they too believe in Him?

I guess you could explain it like that but it would have made a lot more sense if he said, all will experience eternal life because eventually all will believe. I don’t think that’s what Jesus meant though because he seems to be describing the punishment for non-believers and the reward for believers.

His point seems to be that those who believe will live forever and those who do not will “perish.” This is commonly used by those who argue for the destruction of none believers as opposed to eternal torment.

So, I guess I’m also wondering what the Catholic position on the word “perish” here is and why the believers’ reward is said to be eternal life when ALL will eventually have their spirits rejoined with their bodies for eternity…

 

[Glassjester]

I guess you could explain it like that but it would have made a lot more sense if he said, all will experience eternal life because eventually all will believe.

As in Philippians 2:10 - that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth** and under the earth**

So, I guess I’m also wondering what the Catholic position on the word “perish” here is and why the believers’ reward is said to be eternal life when ALL will eventually have their spirits rejoined with their bodies for eternity…

The same Greek word translated as “perish” in John 3:16, is translated elsewhere in Scripture as “be lost,” or as “be wasted.” For example, John 6:12 - When they had all had enough to eat, he said to his disciples, “Gather the pieces that are left over. Let nothing be wasted.”

Even modern English usage of the word “perish” does not always entail annihilation. Food that is called “perishable,” for example, means food that will become inedible or corrupt.

Or I could be completely wrong!

 

[Karen107]

From my understanding, the Church teaches that the final judgement involves the bodily resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. Those in the book of life receive eternal paradise and the wicked are thrown into hell. Both have their spirits and bodies rejoined.

The Church teaches that death is the separation of the body and spirit. However, John 3:16 states, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

However, if those in hell have their body and spirit in tact, are they not, by the definition of the Church, experiencing eternal life? Obviously the quality of life would be horrible but still eternal life… it seems like a contradiction.

Thoughts?

Hi Assyrian…

There are two deaths… One when we die our physical death and those who are not saved at the end of time at the second coming of Christ.

This refers also to the particular ‘first’ judgment and the general ‘final’ judgment. At the end of time ‘the second death’ there will be a separating of those who are taken up to heaven and those who are ‘left behind’… Those taken up to heaven will join those already in heaven to make one glorified body of Christ. Those who are left behind will experience a second death with those who are already in hell…

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Death is opposite of life and so if there is no life there is death. God is life so without God we perish… with God we are saved… Could you imagine life without water or air? Albeit even if we’re spiritual beings we need God to sustain us…'my thoughts… I’ve heard it said recently 'in each one of us there is both heaven and hell… ’ We must get rid of the ‘hell’ in us that binds us in order to experience life eternal… to be saved we are joined In Christ but our bodies never leave our souls… Our bodies don’t die, they are transformed into a glorified one… (1 Corinthians 15:54-57) Today we are simply mirrors of what we will be in heaven one day…

1 Corinthian 13:12 *For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

 

[fhansen]

From my understanding, the Church teaches that the final judgement involves the bodily resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. Those in the book of life receive eternal paradise and the wicked are thrown into hell. Both have their spirits and bodies rejoined.

The Church teaches that death is the separation of the body and spirit. However, John 3:16 states, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

However, if those in hell have their body and spirit in tact, are they not, by the definition of the Church, experiencing eternal life? Obviously the quality of life would be horrible but still eternal life… it seems like a contradiction.

Thoughts?

The language is figurative. To have “life and life abundantly” is a gift, resulting from communion with God. Adam forfeited that gift and died the “death of the soul” as the Church teaches, and we all inherited that death which is why we must be “born again” or “born from above”. Hell is the permanent extension of the death we inherited and then would’ve affirmed throughout our lives by our choices, sort of an “eternal death”.

Eternal life is to change, to turn back to God, to know Him after having that knowledge lost to us from birth. And as we come to know God through faith we come to hope or trust in Him and then to love Him, which is the fulfillment of justice in us. Again, accomplished by communion with God, revealed by Jesus, apart from Whom we can do nothing (John 15:5), but with Whom all things are possible (Matt 19:26), including having and enjoying a life worthy of the name.

 

[puzzledtoo]

I would suggest there is a distinct difference between being alive and living just as there is a difference between being lonely and being alone. One is not necessarily the same as the other.

 

[fisherman_carl]

“And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.” (John 17:3)

 

[rinnie]

From my understanding, the Church teaches that the final judgement involves the bodily resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. Those in the book of life receive eternal paradise and the wicked are thrown into hell. Both have their spirits and bodies rejoined.

The Church teaches that death is the separation of the body and spirit. However, John 3:16 states, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

However, if those in hell have their body and spirit in tact, are they not, by the definition of the Church, experiencing eternal life? Obviously the quality of life would be horrible but still eternal life… it seems like a contradiction.

Thoughts?

correct they choose eternal death. Which is life without God.

 

[ffg]

From my understanding, the Church teaches that the final judgement involves the bodily resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. Those in the book of life receive eternal paradise and the wicked are thrown into hell. Both have their spirits and bodies rejoined.

The Church teaches that death is the separation of the body and spirit. However, John 3:16 states, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

However, if those in hell have their body and spirit in tact, are they not, by the definition of the Church, experiencing eternal life? Obviously the quality of life would be horrible but still eternal life… it seems like a contradiction.

Thoughts?

I think the confusion is ‘life’ defined not as just existence, but a fullness / relationship with God.

All folks will exist forever.

Some folks (few?) will seek God’s mercy in (throughout) this life (time) and be in relationship with God in His everlasting kingdom. Essentially, effort in this life, fulfillment of the effort in the next. But both ‘locations’ being equally ‘life’.

We display this seeking (reflection of God’s love) in this life, with our nature, luckily with God’s guidance (Matt 25 is a good start for ‘how’).

Those who do not seek God’s mercy and reject God’s love will have an everlasting existence, but not in relationship with God, and who knows, if with anyone.

Eternal alone-ness, maybe. But not ‘life’ as meant when talking about ‘eternal life with God’.