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Chesster
Guest
I disagree with the language - faith produces good works.
Nevertheless I will drop the discussion of it.
Nevertheless I will drop the discussion of it.
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Teflon93
Guest
It’s an arguable point—I myself prefer to say that faith is a prerequisite for good works. Grace produces good works. Free will may result in good works.I disagree with the language - faith produces good works.
Nevertheless I will drop the discussion of it.
C
Chesster
Guest
I have no problem with that.It’s an arguable point—I myself prefer to say that faith is a prerequisite for good works.
Exactly! Its grace that produces good works not faith.Grace produces good works.
Maybe I’m being too meticulous but I have come to learn that when we discuss theology we must be specific; otherwise we run the risk of being misunderstood.
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Teflon93
Guest
You’re right. I can see Philthy’s logic, but it’s a bit more abstract than I’d like.I have no problem with that.
Exactly! Its grace that produces good works not faith.
Maybe I’m being too meticulous but I have come to learn that when we discuss theology we must be specific; otherwise we run the risk of being misunderstood.
As a practical versus a theological matter, though, it makes sense, since as we grow in faith we also tend to grow in good works. My wife and I certainly give far more to charity having joined the Church than previously.
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Philthy
Guest
Grace is necessary but it is not irrisistable. Grace does not produce good works apart from faith. Faith does not produce good works apart from grace. Review the parable of the sower.I have no problem with that.
Exactly! Its grace that produces good works not faith.
Maybe I’m being too meticulous but I have come to learn that when we discuss theology we must be specific; otherwise we run the risk of being misunderstood.
You are correct, however, that it is important to be specific.
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Teflon93
Guest
This is an excellent point—one definition of faith is the exercise of free will to believe in God and seek to do His will, or the bending of the free will to God’s will.Grace is necessary but it is not irrisistable. Grace does not produce good works apart from faith. Faith does not produce good works apart from grace. Review the parable of the sower.
You are correct, however, that it is important to be specific.
Our desire to do God’s will (faith) plus God’s will that we do His will (grace) leads to our doing God’s will (good works).
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smkw
Guest
Yes there is a consequence. That is a result of the judgement not the evidence. The judgment is made according to the evidence. The evidence is our works. However it is not the evidence that makes us innocent or guilty. The status of innocent or guilty would exist even if there was no evidence and God knows that status.
In a earthly trial if you are accused of murder, you are either guilty or not. The prosecutor will present evidence to show guilt and the defence will present evidence to show innocence. The judge will then make a decision according to the evidence before him. He may be right or wrong but we know that when God makes His judgement it will be right. The evidence is not necessary for God’s judgement since He already knows the truth, but it is necessary as He wants us to see that His judgement is just.
With the tree and its fruit, the tree is either good or bad. If it is good, it produces good fruit and because of the fruit, or evidence we know it is good. Similarly with a bad tree.
While I don’t agree with Calvin on everything, I think he says well the common Protestant understanding of works.
Commentary on the Catholic Epistles
ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom45.vi.iii.vii.html
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