Debating on if i should even post anything

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latisha1903

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Yes, i am a non-catholic, and am not here to ‘fight’ with catholics or to get into heated debates and arguments. i have never liked that. but i do have one question…pertaing to Mary, Christ’s mother…

**[this is not to get all heated…i’m just seeking your teachings on that…not going to change my view, but i’m open to what others have been taught…i see no harm in knowing] **

so i don’t plan to reply to my own post…unless a question is specifically asked of me…i’d be better to see it in a PM box…

and i’m not posting this to have one of those 'defend your faith type arguments either…just a simple question…with that said…

Where is the basis that Mary was a Virgin till death? And that Christ did not have siblings?
Luke2:7 uses firstborn and in Greek that is prototokos [the first of many others] had Mary not had any other children, the Greek word, monogenes [only son/daughter/child] would have been used. like in Luke 7:12 and in Luke 8:42 where is specifically states only son or daughter. also “The ONLY begotten son of the Father” keyword again only.
no where does it mention that Christ was her only son or child, but it does mention his brothers and his sisters.
Galations 1:19 gives his brother james
I Cor. 9:5 mentions his brothers, whom did not believe in him at first
Matthew 13:55-56
this passage is literal…how can brothers mean cousins in this text [as some claim] when it clearly is speaking of Mother [mary] and father [jospeh]. that would be changing context in the middle of a sentence. .
Matthew 12:46-50
Matthew 1:25 [And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son…]
why would it mention firstborn if she had no other children…parents with only one child, do not say this is my FIRSTborn, because it is eviden they dont’ have anymore, but the Bible specifically states firstborn to show Mary had others.
 
The following is compiled from Keating…Father Mateo…various priests…articles…and myself.
  1. Jesus didn’t have any brothers.
(a) John 19:26-27
When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, “Woman, behold thy son!” Then saith he to the disciple, “Behold thy mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

If Jesus had brothers and sisters, there would be no need to put His mother under the care of John. In fact, it would probably be an insult to His siblings. On the other hand, if we assume Jesus had no siblings, the way He provided for the care of His mother makes perfect sense.

(b) In the Bible, the term “brother” is used in a more general sense than is common today; it would be better translated as “kinsman” or “relative”. There are several Biblical examples of this.

The first example concerns Abram and Lot.

Genesis 11:26
Now these are the generations of Terah: Terah begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran; and Haran begat Lot.

This verse tells us that Abram is the uncle of Lot: Abram is the brother of Lot’s father. But in another verse, Abram is called Lot’s “brother”:

Genesis 14:12,14
And they took Lot, Abram’s brother’s son, who dwelt in Sodom, and his goods, and departed. And when Abram heard that his brother [Lot] was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan.

[Here’s the Greek version from the Septuagint:]

Genesis 14:14
akousas de abram hoti Echmalwteutai lwt ho adelphos autou ErithmEsen tous idious oikogeneis autou triakosious deka kai oktw kai katediwxen opisw autwn hews dan

Similarly, the Bible tells us here that Laban is Jacob’s uncle:

Genesis 29:13
And it came to pass, when Laban heard the tidings of Jacob his sister’s son, that he ran to meet him, and embraced him, and kissed him, and brought him to his house. And he told Laban all these things.

However, two verses later, Laban calls Jacob his brother:

Genesis 29:15
And Laban said unto Jacob, “Because thou art my brother, shouldest thou therefore serve me for nought? tell me, what shall thy wages be?”

Genesis 29:15
eipen de laban tw iakwb oti gar adelphos mou ei ou douleuseis moi dwrean apaggeilon moi tis o misthos sou estin

The Bible shows us that James and Joses had a different mother than Jesus did.

Mark 15:40
There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome.

Obviously, Mary the mother of James and Joses is not the mother of Jesus.

Mark 6:3
Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

We’ve seen that James and Joses were not Jesus’ brothers as we understand the term, but rather cousins at best. Scholars also know that the Greek language utilizes “adelphos” to describe brother/sister, relative/kinfolk, related/associated/cognate, and several other similar notions. One of the limitations of the language.
  1. St. Luke’s gospel, 1:7, “she gave birth to her firstborn son”. If Jesus is called the firstborn, does this not imply that Mary had other children? No, such an opinion rests on a misunderstanding of the way ancient Jews used the term “firstborn”.
Keating writes: “(Firstborn) meant the child that opened the womb (Ex 13:2, Num 3:12). Under the Mosaic Law, it was the firstborn' son that was to be sanctified (Ex 34:20).... The first male child of a marriage was termed the firstborn’ even if he turned out to be the
only child of the marriage.”

In 1923 a Jewish grave inscription was discovered on the site of the ancient Jewish settlement of Leontopolis in Egypt. It marked the grave of a Jewish woman named Arsinoe, who died while giving birth to her firstborn child. Obviously she can have no other children.

“Firstborn” in Jewish law and ritual was a legal term, used to
situate a boy within a special legal and ritual context, giving him
special duties and privileges in his family and in the community.
The ceremony which so situated the firstborn was to take place on the 31st day after his birth. At that point he became legally and
ritually the firstborn even if he turned out to be the only child.
(ENCYCLOPEDIA JUDAICA, vol. 6, col. 1309).

When St. Luke wrote his gospel, he could have been familiar with
Colossians, written several years before the gospel. There, Jesus is called “The firstborn among many brethren”. Of course, those many brethern are his disciples in every age and every place, the members of his Mystical Body the Church (Ephesians 5). So he is truly our elder Brother. Mary is our spiritual Mother and so Jesus was truly her firstborn in the order of our redemption, though she had no other children according to the flesh.
 
  1. Various comments from our Apostolic Fathers:
"He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption."in ULL,94, St. Hippolytus,Orat. Inillud, Dominus pascit me(ante A.D. 235)

“Now with the exception of the holy Virgin Mary in regard to whom, out of respect for the Lord, I do not propose to have a single question raised on the subject of sin – after all, how do we know what greater degree of grace for a complete victory over sin was conferred on her who merited to conceive and bring forth Him who all admit was without sin – to repeat then: with the exception of this Virgin, if we could bring together into one place all those holy men and women, while they lived here, and ask them whether they were without sin, what are we to suppose that they would have replied?” St. Augustine, De natura et gratia PL 44:267( A.D.415)

–

“Mary, a virgin not only undefiled but a virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free from every stain.” St. Ambrose of Milan (340-397)

–

"“Thou, and Thy Mother are alone in this. You are wholly beautiful in every respect. There is in Thee, Lord, no stain, nor any spot in Thy Mother.” (Poem to Christ)

“My Lady Most Holy, All-Pure, All-Immaculate, All-Stainless, All-Undefiled, All-Incorrupt, All-Inviolate …Spotless Robe of Him Who clothes Himself with light as with a garment …Flower unfading, purple woven by God, alone Most Immaculate.” (Ibid) St. Ephraem the Syrian (c. 350)

–

“As he formed her without my stain of her own,so He proceeded from her contracting no stain.” St. Proclus of Constantinople,Homily 1(ante A.D. 446),in ULL,97

–

“The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made.”
St. Peter Chrysologus,Sermon 140(A.D. 449),in ULL,97

–

“A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns.” St. Theodotus of Ancrya,Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446),in THEO,339

–

“[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary.” St. Jacob of Sarug(ante A.D. 521),in CE

–

“[T]ruly elect, and superior to all,not by the altitude of lofty structures, but as ecelling all in the greatness and purity of sublime and divine virtues, and having no affinity with sin whatever.” St. Germanus of Constantinople,Marracci in S. Germani Mariali(ante A.D. 733),in ULL,98

–

“She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay” Theotoknos of Livias,Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption, 5:6(ante A.D. 650),in THEO,180

–

“Today humanity, in all the radiance of her immaculate nobility, receives its ancient beauty. The shame of sin had darkened the splendour and attraction of human nature; but when the Mother of the Fair One par excellence is born, this nature regains in her person its ancient privileges and is fashioned according to a perfect model truly worthy of God… The reform of our nature begins today and the aged world, subjected to a wholly divine transformation, receives the first fruits of the second creation”
St. Andrew of Crete,Sermon I,On the Birth of Mary(A.D. 733),in THEO,180

–

“O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! O glorious womb of Anne in which a most holy offspring grew.” St. John of Damascus,Homily I in Nativ.(ante A.D. 749),in THEO,200

–

“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.”,in ULL,94, Origen,Homily 1(A.D. 244)

–

“Since Mary would not have been a worthy mother of God if she had ever sinned, we assert without qualification that Mary never committed a sinful act, fatal or non-fatal: You are wholly beautiful, my love, and without blemish. Christ is the source of grace, author of it as God and instrument of it as man, and, since Mary was closest to Christ in giving him his human nature, she rightly received from him fullness of grace: grace in such abundance as to bring her closest in grace to its author, receiving into herself the one who was full of every grace [for others], and, by giving birth to him, bringing grace to all.” St. Thomas Aquinas (Summa Theologica IIIa:27.4-5)
 
Welcome Latisha,

I hope that you find this forum to be a charitable one. I hope that you will find the discussion here interesting and edifying.

God bless, 🙂

Iguana
 
agname…or anyone that can help…

where are those quotes from…where would i be able to find those…because i have no idea what they are…thanks in advance…😉

like with the page numbers and everything…
 
I would just like to add one point:

We can see that Mary had always planned to lead a celibate life as one consecrated to God in the following passage from Luke 1:31-34:

The angel declares, “Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son…”

To which Mary replies, “How can this be, since I have no relations with man?”

Now, Mary is not ignorant of how children are made. She wouldn’t ask this question if she had planned to have marital relations in the future. She asked this question because it seemed impossible given her plans.

Marriage to an older, pious man may have been a prudent means of providing protection. (Notice that we don’t hear much from Joseph later in the Gospels, even at the cross, since he could have died well before that event.)

members.tripod.com/~Emmaus1/perpetua.html​

Become a prayeraholic!
 
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latisha1903:
agname…or anyone that can help…

where are those quotes from…where would i be able to find those…because i have no idea what they are…thanks in advance…😉

like with the page numbers and everything…
Click to expand...
Which quotes? The Apostolic Fathers? The sources are after the quotes. You can find them in any hall that houses and propagates erudition.

In the first post…some of them can be found…

catholic.com/library/brethren_of_the_lord.asp
cin.org/mateo/m920729a.html
 
Hey Latisha! Please don’t be afraid to post here. We may end up disagreeing but I’ve found that the conversation is often stimulating, and rarely condescending. If you feel put down, just move to another thread, but please stay!

Agname, great post! I don’t think I have anything to add, but I’ll throw in a story I use with my middle schoolers sometimes when this question comes up:

My grandfather was a smoker. He smoked alot. Eventually we grandkids got together and told him we didn’t like him smoking because we loved him and wanted him to stay around! Well, he took us to heart, quit smoking, and didn’t have another cigarette until the day he died.

Tell me, does this story imply that he had another smoke the day after he died?
 
“All generations will call me blessed”

A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun
and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve
stars.

Our blessed virgin Mary is all through the scriptures, I hope and
pray you find her in your heart.

God bless you, hope you stay awhile, or visit again.😉
 
Once one gets over the “brethren” issue cited above, there also other arguments that come in. I can’t get too specific right now, but the people who are Christ’s brothers give Christ advice as to what to do at various points in the Gospels. In middle-eastern culture, that would have been unthinkable, unless the people giving the advice were older. No younger brother would give advice to the firstborn. Thus, the “brothers” giving Christ advice must be older than him. And thus not the children of Mary.

Then there is the fact that absolutely nobody thought Mary had had other children until after the “reformation” (except Helvidius). St. Jerome gives a pretty thorough refutation of Helvidius.
 
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