Declare no Saturday Vigil Mass

[pianistclare]

Things don’t happen in a vacuum. If a priest decides that, for ex. the Hispanic community would be better served if he moved the Spanish Mass to Sunday rather than late Saturday, he just calls a meeting, polls the people, and if everyone is enthusiastic about the change, he makes an announcement that from such and such date forward, the Mass in Spanish will be at 2 PM on Sundays. That’s what our pastor decided recently. The Archbishop had nothing to do with the decision. We did call the Chancery to make a change in the posted times on the website.
Todo bien.

 

[porthos11]

Or as a common courtesy or if the bishop requested that mass time to be offered because of a pastoral need, it might be prudent to consult with one’s bishop or even with the parish when changing mass times or availability.

True. Of course one can always find a more positive political reason than the cynical one such as the extreme example I posted.

 

[FrDavid96]

I think what Corki means is that while he agrees with your opinion, it might be expedient to do the consultation thing purely for political reasons. Such as not getting the bishop riled up at him and exiling him to the edge of his territory.

Just guessing though; I’m sure Corki can clarify.

It would be good in my opinion too. At some point the diocese would want to know the current Mass times of each parish, I would think.

Or as a common courtesy or if the bishop requested that mass time to be offered because of a pastoral need, it might be prudent to consult with one’s bishop or even with the parish when changing mass times or availability.

No.

None of the above is correct.

 

[FrDavid96]

Yes. Thank you…however, a “vigil” in a 'vigil mass" is an adjective, but when appearing or referred to as a “Vigil Mass”, it is noun., hence my confusion.

As I posted earlier, any Mass that is in the evening or night-time can be called a vigil Mass.

The word refers to a time-of-day, in this case evening or night.

Calling a Mass a vigil Mass is no different than calling a Mass at 3:00 PM an “afternoon Mass.”

There are a handful of proper Mass texts for vigil Masses for certain days. The fact that these texts exist has no impact on whether or not a Mass on any other day is a vigil Mass.

I don’t understand why you’re confused. What is confusing?

In your text above (that I’ve put into blue) the word “Mass” is the noun, and the word “Vigil” is an adjective qualifying the noun.

 

[porthos11]

No.

None of the above is correct.

I think no one disagrees, Father. I believe we’re just saying that from a purely political perspective, a priest might find it best to “play it safe” and go through the powers that be, despite the fact that he alone has the authority to set his Mass times.

You are likely under the authority of a good bishop, but we also know that there are bishops who can use their authority to banish or at least make life really hard for priests who don’t toe the party line, so to speak, on this or any other matter (a diocesan priest can offer the Extraordinary Form without permission from his Ordinary too, but realities tell us that that could in fact get him to some serious trouble, depending in the bishop).

As much as I hate to admit it, such bishops do exist and politics is alive and well in the Catholic Church.

 

[jilly4ski]

No.

None of the above is correct.

What do you mean “correct?” If a bishop approached a priest and requested a mass time be offered because of a pastoral need, the priest would probably discuss with the bishop why he could not or would not do so. Or if this priest’s Saturday Mass, was the only one for 50 miles, are you saying it wouldn’t be a good idea to inform the bishop’s office that you would no longer be offering it? (I don’t know, but that sounds like something he would like to know, for a variety of reasons, like priest assignments, pastoral needs of his flock etc. but maybe not:shrug. Or changing Mass times without some (name removed by moderator)ut from the parish (usually in the form of a parish council or liturgy committee) would probably bring on bad feelings in the parish. But, I think we were all in agreement, generally, a priest could decline to celebrate a vigil or anticipatory Mass, whether on a one off basis or regularly.

 

[FrDavid96]

What do you mean “correct?” If a bishop approached a priest and requested a mass time be offered because of a pastoral need, the priest would probably discuss with the bishop why he could not or would not do so. Or if this priest’s Saturday Mass, was the only one for 50 miles, are you saying it wouldn’t be a good idea to inform the bishop’s office that you would no longer be offering it? (I don’t know, but that sounds like something he would like to know, for a variety of reasons, like priest assignments, pastoral needs of his flock etc. but maybe not:shrug. Or changing Mass times without some (name removed by moderator)ut from the parish (usually in the form of a parish council or liturgy committee) would probably bring on bad feelings in the parish. But, I think we were all in agreement, generally, a priest could decline to celebrate a vigil or anticipatory Mass, whether on a one off basis or regularly.

Argument for argument’s sake.

What you posted is completely different than the comments to which I responded.

 

[FrDavid96]

To qualify my earlier comments:

A vigil Mass is one that (somehow) looks forward in the calendar, or forward in the day.

A vigil might he held on Saturday evening or night, for Sunday.

A vigil might be held in the early morning (while still dark) of Sunday morning.

The exception to what I posted earlier is that if the Mass is held in the later hours of the calendar day of the feast, then it would not be a vigil Mass. For example, some college campuses have late Sunday Masses (8, 9, or even 10 PM). These are not vigil Masses even though they are evening/night. A vigil looks forward, not backward in time.

 

[porthos11]

To qualify my earlier comments:

A vigil Mass is one that (somehow) looks forward in the calendar, or forward in the day.

A vigil might he held on Saturday evening or night, for Sunday.

A vigil might be held in the early morning (while still dark) of Sunday morning.

The exception to what I posted earlier is that if the Mass is held in the later hours of the calendar day of the feast, then it would not be a vigil Mass. For example, some college campuses have late Sunday Masses (8, 9, or even 10 PM). These are not vigil Masses even though they are evening/night. A vigil looks forward, not backward in time.

To add a follow-up question to this, Father, as far as a “real” vigil goes. Can the rubrics of the Office of Readings vigil be factored in, i.e. can a Vigil Mass (a “real” vigil) be combined with the Office of Readings vigil to make it longer (i.e. more readings, canticles, etc.?)

 

[OraLabora]

To add a follow-up question to this, Father, as far as a “real” vigil goes. Can the rubrics of the Office of Readings vigil be factored in, i.e. can a Vigil Mass (a “real” vigil) be combined with the Office of Readings vigil to make it longer (i.e. more readings, canticles, etc.?)

The General Instructions of the LOTH:

1. Apart from Christmas eve, the combining of Mass with the office of readings is normally excluded, since the Mass already has its own cycle of readings, to be kept distinct from any other. But if by way of exception, it should be necessary to join the two, then immediately after the second reading from the office, with its responsory, the rest is omitted and the Mass begins with the Gloria, if it is called for; otherwise the Mass begins with the opening prayer.

So only exceptionally would the two be combined besides Christmas (and of course the Easter Vigil takes the place of the Office of Readings at Easter).

I can’t think of any circumstance where it would be necessary to combine the two besides those already normal in the liturgy. Perhaps Father would like to chime in on what those circumstances might be.

At our abbey, Vigils (the monastic equivalent to the Office of Readings) is said before Midnight Mass, but there’s a half-hour gap between the Office and the Mass.

 

[Kielbasi]

Does a parish priest have authority on his own to declare no Saturday Vigil Mass?

Parish priests certainly have that authority, but if the Saturday afternoon/early evening masses are well attended, he would be very unlikely to do so.

 

[InThePew]

You are likely under the authority of a good bishop, but we also know that there are bishops who can use their authority to banish or at least make life really hard for priests who don’t toe the party line, so to speak, on this or any other matter (a diocesan priest can offer the Extraordinary Form without permission from his Ordinary too, but realities tell us that that could in fact get him to some serious trouble, depending in the bishop).

If a priest decided to cancel a mass time of his own initiative and without consulting with his parishioners first then the bishop’s reaction will be the least of his concerns. In fact, after the parishioners are done with him, the idea of banishment to the “siberia” of the diocese will probably seem quite appealing

Seriously though, bishops don’t normally involve themselves with the details of parish life unless they have to.

 

[FrDavid96]

To add a follow-up question to this, Father, as far as a “real” vigil goes. Can the rubrics of the Office of Readings vigil be factored in, i.e. can a Vigil Mass (a “real” vigil) be combined with the Office of Readings vigil to make it longer (i.e. more readings, canticles, etc.?)

The General Instructions of the LOTH:

So only exceptionally would the two be combined besides Christmas (and of course the Easter Vigil takes the place of the Office of Readings at Easter).

I can’t think of any circumstance where it would be necessary to combine the two besides those already normal in the liturgy. Perhaps Father would like to chime in on what those circumstances might be.

At our abbey, Vigils (the monastic equivalent to the Office of Readings) is said before Midnight Mass, but there’s a half-hour gap between the Office and the Mass.

Nothing much to add. Thanks for posting from the General Instructions.

I’m not a fan of combining the Liturgy of the Hours with Mass anyway. I can see the value of one then the other (example: complete Morning Prayer followed by a complete Mass). However, I’m not a fan of combining the two into a single continuous service. It just never made any sense to me to skip over the opening parts of the Mass and for that reason I’ve never actually done it. I cannot imagine any circumstances where it would be necessary to combine them, especially since the General Instruction says that it’s not to be done except by way of an unusual exception. So, only because you asked me directly, I’ll say “no” I cannot think of any time it would be necessary.

 

[Gorgias]

Would posters who claim that a parish pastor needs some kind of “permission” from the bishop to set the parish Mass schedule please cite the relevant canon from the Code of Canon Law or the General Instruction or whatever other source supports that claim?

If memory serves, the policy in my diocese is that changes in the weekend Mass schedule require the pastor to hear comments from the faithful of the parish, and then receive the approval of the bishop or his delegate. Perhaps what the posters are asserting isn’t the law of the Church universal, but of their diocese.

So, while it might not be the case that all pastors are required to get diocesan approval, it is neither the case that there are no pastors who are required to do so.

 

[pnewton]

Would posters who claim that a parish pastor needs some kind of “permission” from the bishop to set the parish Mass schedule please cite the relevant canon from the Code of Canon Law or the General Instruction or whatever other source supports that claim?

I know that when we have changed our Mass times, the parish priest here just did it based on his own judgment. Now, I know I don’t know everything, but I usually am close to these decisions, as I have to help with the liturgy, and I am 99% sure it was done without any sort of approval.

 

[kwitz]

Interesting reads here as my parish is changing Mass times next week with the start of the new church year. We are losing a Mass on Sunday partially due to lower attendance but mostly because we are a one priest parish now. While I have no idea what if any discussion our pastor had with the archdiocese, I know there were several meetings with parishioners to discuss options. The new times require everyone to go to Mass at a new time. DH and I are in a real conundrum over this as we really don’t like any of the new times compared to our old options. But, we love our parish so we’ll figure something out and adjust.

Kris

 

[Corki]

Would posters who claim that a parish pastor needs some kind of “permission” from the bishop to set the parish Mass schedule please cite the relevant canon from the Code of Canon Law or the General Instruction or whatever other source supports that claim?

Would a Cardinal Archbishop suffice? Back when the Motu Propio was issued for the EF, our Cardinal published a “reminder” that the addition of any Mass, OF or EF, must be approved. He did not say it was a diocesan policy so I just assumed it was a common one. My bad if it is just a peculiarity of our diocese.

 

[pnewton]

Would a Cardinal Archbishop suffice? Back when the Motu Propio was issued for the EF, our Cardinal published a “reminder” that the addition of any Mass, OF or EF, must be approved. He did not say it was a diocesan policy so I just assumed it was a common one. My bad if it is just a peculiarity of our diocese.

I remember that. I thought it was just in reference to adding a new form of the Mass, not changing the time of a Mass already being offered.