Decree against communism

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DaPaceDomine111

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So the other day i was reminded about the decree against communism form 1947 but i had some questions
1 what counts as supporting communist ideas for example i Found that the analysis of capitalism by Marx has some Points and Gets some things about capitalism correct (atleast how it was Presented to me at university)does this count as supporting communist ideas ?
2 What about reading communist books in order to undersrand the enemy ?

Just to be clear i oppose communism and capitalism but is was wondering if these things Stated above are also Forbidden under co’cequence of excommunication

Some addtional info

So lately i have been reading Lenin (out of curiosity and in order to counter communists )
But i was forgoten the decree against communism or atleast i had forgoten some details i was recently reminded of this
And Came accors this

Q1: Is it licit to join (“give name to”) communist parties or tender favor to them?

A1: No, because Communism is materialist and antichristian; the leaders of communists, even though they sometimes profess not to oppress religion, the same people nevertheless, whether by doctrine or by action, eventually make clear that they are bitterly hostile [infensos] to both God and the truths of religion and the Church of Christ.

Q2: Is it licit to publish, spread, or read books, journals, or leaflets which defend the actions of communism, or to write for them?

A2: No, because it is forbidden by the very law. [Presumably this refers to the Code of Canon Law of 1917.]

Q3. Can Christians who freely and knowingly do the things mentioned in #1 and #2 be admitted to the sacraments?

A3. No. It follows from the ordinary principles of the sacraments that those who are not properly disposed must be denied.

It says that People who commit one of the first to Points are exclused from the sacraments
Does this includes confession ?
(Just a side note i’m not in favor of communism in fact I oppose it i was only reading it in order to undersrand the enemy and to be Able to counter it in a proper fashion )
 
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DaPaceDomine111 said:
1 what counts as supporting communist ideas for example i Found that the analysis of capitalism by Marx has some Points and Gets some things about capitalism correct (atleast how it was Presented to me at university)does this count as supporting communist ideas ?
2 What about reading communist books in order to understand the enemy ?
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Mark 16: 16-18

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

COMMENT: If you truly believe on Jesus Christ, as Lord and Savior, and are baptized, to an extent you are immune to the works of Satan. Verse 18 deals more with our immunity to spiritual evil (“taking up serpents”) which shall not harm us. So, if there was a requirement that you read Karl Marx in a philosophy course, or communist literature in a political science course, the risky behavior might be justifiable.

On the other hand, false prophets / atheists like Marx or Nietzsche wrote under the inspiration of demonic entities. There is always a small measure of truth to the work of a false prophet, but it is not the truth (Jesus Christ). The small truth is how false prophets bait and deceive people into their false belief system.

***To read the works of false prophets is to expose yourself to the demonic entities that lurk between the covers of their books. I do not recommend exposing yourself unnecessarily.

Even the notion of “in order to understand the enemy” may be a demonic temptation. Why? To fulfill what purpose? Why endanger yourself, spiritually? It sounds as if a “positive spin” on communism was already presented (or implanted) at university.

Here is better advice for you:

Psalms 34:14

14 Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it.
 
This article Market Socialism as a Distinct Socioeconomic Formation | New Proposals: Journal of Marxism and Interdisciplinary Inquiry nicely sums up that socialism and communism are kind of social economic relations that naturally emerges when the technological and scientific development is sufficiently mature in such degree that the current capitalism cannot exist further.

The true socialism and communism, according to Marx as explained in this article, can not be introduced by force or ballot as some countries and regimes tried to do. True socialism and communism emerges when the technologies, means of production have matured.

The technologies has not mature for this transition to happen during 20th century, so - all those self-styled regimes and political parties are not the true socialists and communists in the Marxian sense.

But now - Industry 4.0, digitisation, artificial intelligence, robotics - all this can be enough and the transition to the socialism can start now.

There are evidences that such transition could have started already:
All this is pointing to the direction of postcapitalism and it may be true that socialism and capitalism are exactly the systems that will replace the capitalism. More research is needed and too little research is being done. Marx was OK, but more modern (name removed by moderator)ut is strongly required.

And the Church is trying to stay up-to-date with the developments as the symposium by the Pontifical Academy shows: Dignity and the Future of Work in the Age of the Fourth Industrial Revolution

So - it is OK to go ahead with times. Church is trying not to stay behind too.

There is so many misunderstanding about this theme.

But when I am starting to point out how robots and automation is eradicating jobs and how they are reducing the wages of the workers then people start to think. But still - there is big gap between understanding the link between the technological development and the necessary phase transition of socio-economic relationships in society.
 
I’m not a marxist by any means and i think true communism Cant be achieved any way (nor would i want too but i’m more on the labor side of economics (i would Prefer national syndicalism or corporatism) but that was not really my question is it ok to read communist books and if not can i go to confession is ?🙂
 
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Confession is not excluded. God always wants us to repent and become His friend again. It doesn’t matter the sin committed as long as it is Confessed rightly. His Mercy is infinite!
 
I have studied a lot about Marxism-Leninism, and have seen the effects of it first-hand, “up close and personal”. Marx and Lenin were not absolutely wrong about absolutely everything, and not everything under communism was bad. They did some things very well — math, science, and technology education (critical thinking was discouraged unless you came to Marxist conclusions — sound familiar, anyone?), their space program, athletics, and at least in recent years, nobody starved to death. You didn’t always have the food you wanted, but you could eat. From what I have heard, people who visited the socialist bloc from poor “third world” countries were very pleased with the food. (And you’ve never truly lived if you haven’t had the Polish kotlet schabowy (pork schnitzel) with cabbage and dilled potatoes. Heaven on a plate!)

Still, though, even a broken clock is right twice a day. I have studied a lot about communism, and I never had a scruple that I might be committing a sin by doing so. You have to know the enemy to be able to counter them. Of course, people of not-so-strong intellect, or those who might swayed by Marxist arguments, should stay away from them. In college, I was about the furthest thing from a Marxist imaginable.
 
Are sure because it said that a person could not receive the sacraments but if confession is indeed not exclused is that wonderfull news
 
arvo said:
The technologies has not mature for this transition to happen during 20th century, so - all those self-styled regimes and political parties are not the true socialists and communists in the Marxian sense.

But now - Industry 4.0, digitisation, artificial intelligence, robotics - all this can be enough and the transition to the socialism can start now.

There are evidences that such transition could have started already:
All this is pointing to the direction of postcapitalism and it may be true that socialism and capitalism are exactly the systems that will replace the capitalism. More research is needed and too little research is being done. Marx was OK, but more modern (name removed by moderator)ut is strongly required.
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This is a progressive perspective that somewhere the world is improving in unseen ways, that will enable unworkable socialism / Marxism to finally become workable.

This belief requires a lot of progressive faith. This is speculation about the future world.

But, what if the future world looks pretty much like our world of 2020? The unchanging “fallen world” of the Bible, a world of sinful human relationships, that human history has always witnessed?
 
I never thought Marx and Lenin where stupid they where obvious intelectuals and despite having good intentions but there ideology is evil but worth debating and even beter would be to give a catholic response and setting up catholic labor movements (with is done to an extend in Rerum Novarum) and in order to debate against the ideas i wanted to read communist world (Lenin) in order to arue correctly but then i was reminded about the decree against communism and i started doubting and fearing the concesquences so i was wondering is it allowed to read those works and if not that confession was still an option
 
Catechism 2425 is a good starting point. I’ve found nothing in Canon Law. Once a person resolved their situation and is contrite, why would they not be able to go to Confession, or seek a Priest?

Robots taking human jobs away just demands that humans need to get creative and think of other ways to survive and thrive. It requires a different way of living, but that doesn’t always have to land us in Communism’s lap.
 
Why are you thinking that the world is not changing? If we disregard the facts and new then we are living in constant darkness that never changes. But we should see the signs of time:
All of this is changing the world.

Well - the point is - it may be possible that socialism and communism is becoming a necessity and as necessity it may be made moral by the Church.

But I also acknowledge - not all of people are ready for the hard meals, for the non-milk meals. Therefor, it is OK for some people to stay on the milk diet intellectually, it is for Trinity.
 
I agree but this is the reason why i was doubting if it could go to confession
Q1: Is it licit to join (“give name to”) communist parties or tender favor to them?

A1: No, because Communism is materialist and antichristian; the leaders of communists, even though they sometimes profess not to oppress religion, the same people nevertheless, whether by doctrine or by action, eventually make clear that they are bitterly hostile [infensos] to both God and the truths of religion and the Church of Christ.

Q2: Is it licit to publish, spread, or read books, journals, or leaflets which defend the actions of communism, or to write for them?

A2: No, because it is forbidden by the very law. [Presumably this refers to the Code of Canon Law of 1917.]

Q3. Can Christians who freely and knowingly do the things mentioned in #1 and #2 be admitted to the sacraments?

A3. No. It follows from the ordinary principles of the sacraments that those who are not properly disposed must be denied.
 
You should decouple Marx from Lenin. Marx is one of the top 100 cited scientists in the entire human history, Marx is one of the 3 founders of social sciences (founder not of one discipline of science, but of the entire array of sciences), one of the greatest mind in history. Lenin is follower who distorted Marx idea, Lenin’s most cruel distortion was idea that the socialism and communism can be introduced by the force on the feudal Russian society. It is so against Marx. And yet - there are so many folks that disregard those fundamental differences between Marx and Lenin and that attribute all the gravenees of the criminal regime of Lenin to Marx. It is not good for the reason.
 
I agree that there are diffrences between Marx and Lenin i going to be honest i haven’t read Marx so i Can’t p(name removed by moderator)oint the diffrences but what i know from Marx i still disagree with him non the less Lenin was still pretty smart and i thought it was worth reading him since he made as far as I know a great contribution to communist thought
I disagree with both btw but i thought at the moment that Lenin would be more interesting to read and wild be more (name removed by moderator)ortant in debates
 
Just for your reference - I feel that you have wider interest about issues in society and about future. It is OK to think about big issues and and about future, but one should do this thinking in rational, balanced way. E.g. it is how science of future acts Futures - Journal - Elsevier

From my perspective (as person who eagerly follows everything what’s happening in Artificial Intelligence and Artificial General Intelligence) I can add that the science of future underestimates the impact of emerging AI.

So - my advice is - if you want to go big with thinking then join AI with Science of Future and you will see that there is natural place for Marx as well. And such rational, reasoned approach is certainly tolerated and even supported by the Church, it is how my conscience fells.

But if you are under the emotions, under the scarcity of literature, wise companions and guidance, then it is better not to think or read about those big issues.

Every job, every study has its own ethics and best practices. These are my criterions in this discussion. Not all the priests will be smart enough to adhere with them but I guess that today priests, especially, jesuits, especially jesuits from the American jesuit universities, are smart enough to guide people in such manner that people can keep their minds and hearts open.
 
A person that is only automatically excommunicated can’t be denied The Holy Eucharist if they happen to go up to receive (aside from public debacle, it’s difficult for a Priest to be aware anyway until a Confession is heard). However, someone that is publicly excommunicated should be denied Sacraments until the issue is resolved by Confession. Really, people should go to Confession before going to Mass and receiving The Holy Eucharist. There is nothing under the sun that we cannot confess and overcome by Confession if we are contrite and have a will to change.

It’s also possible that I’m not understanding where you’re going with this. Personal aside: I know that I had such (only as informative, in no way would I defend Communism ever in my life) media online and removed it all, went to Confession (a number of times since), and receive the Sacraments without issue. I’ve never identified as Communist. I think it’s abysmal and feel horrible for ever sharing anything of it ever, but in some situations (identification of mission statements being Communist), it can be important to be aware on concepts.

The issue would be much bigger if the person is a public figure or leader and makes no obvious plan to change their public opinions/political party/stances, and if they have the preference to remain in sin regardless, they should be publicly excommunicated and not receive sacraments (as opposed to a simple automatic excommunication, which would not require them to miss out on Communion, but they would be eating judgement unto themselves).

We should always pray for our leaders and our Priests/Clergy.

I want to add, but didn’t have a good place to really insert this: and there’s no reason to judge oneself harshly, if truly repentant, and desiring to change, and seeking change in oneself…if there’s no desire to change, and the person keeps eating unto their own judgement…that’s really their decision. It can be resolved in Confession with a contrite heart and desire to change. If this is about you, you might seek to schedule a Confession outside of normal Confession times and see what the Priest advises you.

My known/identified ref: Canon Law 843, 915, 1398, at a minimum, and would require more research when I’m feeling a bit better.
 
Good to know i’m not a communist either but i Found the decree unclair and i still don’t know what to think of it but i Will mention the marxist literature during confession but what the diffrences between automatic excomunication and mortal sin in that Regard
 
If there’s an Automatic Excommunication due to mortal sin, I would personally avoid Communion (to avoid eating unto your judgement). Since Communism is something that’s mentioned in the Catechism (2425) so that alone should be enough that The Church has put it into The Catechism, it’s officially in perpetuity even with a new Catechism being released. Basically, it goes against The Catholic Church, and in that, requires Confession. But what does it mean if you are trying to learn in order to avoid certain things, that’s something different.

I think it’s dangerous to leave people unawares of what they’re getting into. Certain movements can seem so benign, but can easily be the wolves in sheep clothing for those that are unaware of what Communism even is. (otoh, I understand the ability for demons to get in and catch hold, and that’s not good at all)… That said, The Church has Her stance in writing.

Your Priest should be able to guide you on this, to make a more wise decision.
 
I fear my priest does probably not know about this issue he also not the most orthodox priest

I Will edit this post to post a finale question for now since i Can’t reply for the next 21 hours but i hope somoene can awnser this question for me

Q1: Is it licit to join (“give name to”) communist parties or tender favor to them?

A1: No, because Communism is materialist and antichristian; the leaders of communists, even though they sometimes profess not to oppress religion, the same people nevertheless, whether by doctrine or by action, eventually make clear that they are bitterly hostile [infensos] to both God and the truths of religion and the Church of Christ.

Q2: Is it licit to publish, spread, or read books, journals, or leaflets which defend the actions of communism, or to write for them?

A2: No, because it is forbidden by the very law. [Presumably this refers to the Code of Canon Law of 1917.]

Q3. Can Christians who freely and knowingly do the things mentioned in #1 and #2 be admitted to the sacraments?

A3. No. It follows from the ordinary principles of the sacraments that those who are not properly disposed must be denied.

Q4. Do Christians, who profess the materialist and anti-Christian doctrine of the communists – primarily, those who defend and propagate that doctrine – by that very fact, do they incur excommunication reserved to the Holy See, as if apostates from the Catholic Faith?

Q4. Yes.
Based on this i have only two or so questions remaining is the excomunication reserverd for actual communists only or also for People who read the communist books i have read diffrent awsers I have also read that A2 dienst count anymore because code1917 orso was overruled or something is this true and what does this Mean for the decree
My second question is, is it trein that only the Pope can lift the excomunication (once again i’m not a communist and i find this whole decree confussing )
 
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