Defence of the Crusades by Modern Popes?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Son_of_Abel
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
The Chinon parchment details a failed attempt by the Pope to preserve the Templars from the machinations of the king of France, Philippe IV, by establishing that the Order was not heretical and was capable of reform under the aegis of the Church. However, as it became apparent that Philippe was determined upon the extermination of the Order (and the confiscation of their considerable wealth and property within his kingdom) the Pope abandoned the Templars to their fate. Outside France, the dissolution of the Order was achieved with far less bloodshed, and surviving members of the order were absorbed into other religious institutions.
I did not see, and you did not provided the facsimile of the original documents, so we shall keep ourselves with the principles

The apostasy (spitting of the cross) is greater sin as heresy, so is to pervert the innocents.

Clear revocation would be the re-establishing the order with the contemporary principles, the Holy Spirit thus far saved the Church from that

The Templars and their functions were assumed by the Trinitarian order. Look at the name: The Trinity and the Cross are part of the Christian faith, the Temple in the view of the Christian is the symbol of the past destructed by God. Also the Trinitarians are the proof the goal (pilgrimage to the Holy land) could be achieved without apostasy and perversion.
 
So then if that is a fact explain Judas Iscariot. Does what Judas did , diminish in anyway the effots of the other 11 Apostles? Obviously not. From the beginning there have been Catholics who sinned and former Catholics who apostacized - and therein lies the difference. There are always two sides to every story and simply because the Protestants and Non Catholics have been more vocal in voicing their version of historic events , do not be so quick to buy into them. The CHURCH as I define it is the Church Triumphant the Church Militant and the Church Suffering in UNION with the Body of CHRIST at all times. Since the Church as I define it (the way I was Catechised) Cannot be in complicity with SIN. Take for example St. Bernard of Clairvaux who called for the Second Crusade that wound up going terribly wrong and was for all intents and purposes and utter failure. And yet St Bernard of Clairvaux obviously had GOD’s Blessing or he would not have been able to perform the miracles he performed. So the paradox for you would be to explain why that is so.
The Church has never responded to Judas’ sin by suggesting that it was not, in fact, sinful. For that matter, the Church has never denied that Peter was not sinful, or any of the other apostles. You attempt to address the sins of the Church and its members by simply defining them out of existence - if it was sin, it was not the Church. Others attempt to deal with them by simply denying that there was anything wrong with actions that even the Popes admit were wrongful. Neither is a good response to sin, and neither is the way we should react to the sins of the Church. I suggest we follow the example given by Peter in the Gospel, which is what I think the Popes have tried to do.
 
I can’t see any modern pope going out of his way to defend the Crucades, knowing what we do about what actually happened.

It was an unmittigated murderous plunder and land grab despite the ostensible intention to free the Holy Land from the Muslims who had invaded it. Nothing that happened during the Crucades are any credit to Christians and the message of the Gospels.

There is a lot of information out on the Crucades and I’m afraid to say that the Muslims come out with a better reputation than the Christians that fought in the Holy Land in terms of mercy and tolerance.
I am not persuaded of this, and I am certainly not persuaded that “the Muslims” were a unitary force. They most certainly were not.

Initially, the Crusades resulted in the Byzantines regaining much of the land they had lost to the Turks. The Crusaders didn’t have to hand that territory to the Byzantines, but they did. At various times, Muslim Arab leaders joined with the Crusaders in fighting the Seljuk and Khwarasmian Turks, who were oppressing the Arabs. Right at the end, the Crusader states offered to join with the Mamluk Turks in Egypt in resisting the Mongol invasion that had pretty much destroyed Iraq. But the Mamluks refused. Finding themselves opposed by both, the Crusaders withdrew. The Mamluks then beat back the Mongols and took over most of the Middle East. But only for a time.

The oppression of the Arab Muslims by Central Asians didn’t end there. After being ruled (unwillingly) by the Mamluks, they were overwhelmed by Timur, another Turkic fellow from Central Asia, who essentially destroyed the Middle East; a destruction from which it really never recovered. In the meantime, the Ottoman Turks took over Asia Minor and fought Timur’s minions to a mutually destructive standstill, with the Arab lands as the unwilling battlefield. That gave Byzantium a breather, but only for a short while. Ultimately, the Ottomans took over the entire Middle East except for Persia, and misruled it for centuries.

Arabs are totally wrong in blaming the Crusaders for destroying their world. They were already ruled by Turks when the Crusaders came, and were ruled by other Turks when the Crusaders left, all the way down to the 20th Century.

When it comes to the Fourth Crusade, there was plenty of blame to go around, but the Pope did not bear any of it. It has to be remembered that the Frankish knights numbered perhaps as many as 8,000 men. The Byzantines promised (among other things) 10,000 Byzantine troops to aid in retaking the Holy Land. But the two warred on each other, and it came to nothing.

8,000 Franks conquered Byzantium in the Fourth Crusade. It was a bad thing, and the Pope excommunicated them all for it, but again, both sides were blameworthy. The Byzantines did recover from it, though it may be argued that they would have been stronger but for the Fourth Crusade.

Regardless, Constantinople, which had been taken by 8,000 Franks without artillery was later overwhelmed by 200,000 Ottoman Turks with the very latest artillery. It had absolutely no chance against a force like that, Fourth Crusade or no Fourth Crusade. It is unlikely that the western Christian countries could have come to the Byzantines’ aid in sufficient force to have saved them from that onslaught. Indeed, the later attempted Ottoman conquest of western Europe was a close thing, even though the westerners had shorter communication and supply lines.

The “western end” of the Crusades was more successful; that is, the eviction of Muslims from France and the Christian reconquest of Spain. Ultimately, the Austrians, Germans and Poles prevented the Ottomans from overwhelming western Europe. But again, it was a close thing. The Ottomans got all the way to the gates of Vienna, and had Vienna fallen, northwestern Europe would have been open to them. The Ottomans took the whole of the Balkans to the Adriatic, even so.
 
I did not see, and you did not provided the facsimile of the original documents, so we shall keep ourselves with the principles

The apostasy (spitting of the cross) is greater sin as heresy, so is to pervert the innocents.

Clear revocation would be the re-establishing the order with the contemporary principles, the Holy Spirit thus far saved the Church from that

The Templars and their functions were assumed by the Trinitarian order. Look at the name: The Trinity and the Cross are part of the Christian faith, the Temple in the view of the Christian is the symbol of the past destructed by God. Also the Trinitarians are the proof the goal (pilgrimage to the Holy land) could be achieved without apostasy and perversion.
Well why dont you look it up and educate yourself on the matter and stop your willful ignorance? Ive given you all the information you need, should I go over to you place and google it for you? No, here is the next best thing -

lmgtfy.com/?q=THE+PARCHMENT+OF+CHINON+

Only one Templar admitted to doing such things while all other denied it.

You just seem like a Templar hater and go against the church to condemn them.
 
I am not persuaded of this, and I am certainly not persuaded that “the Muslims” were a unitary force. They most certainly were not.

Initially, the Crusades resulted in the Byzantines regaining much of the land they had lost to the Turks. The Crusaders didn’t have to hand that territory to the Byzantines, but they did. At various times, Muslim Arab leaders joined with the Crusaders in fighting the Seljuk and Khwarasmian Turks, who were oppressing the Arabs. Right at the end, the Crusader states offered to join with the Mamluk Turks in Egypt in resisting the Mongol invasion that had pretty much destroyed Iraq. But the Mamluks refused. Finding themselves opposed by both, the Crusaders withdrew. The Mamluks then beat back the Mongols and took over most of the Middle East. But only for a time.

The oppression of the Arab Muslims by Central Asians didn’t end there. After being ruled (unwillingly) by the Mamluks, they were overwhelmed by Timur, another Turkic fellow from Central Asia, who essentially destroyed the Middle East; a destruction from which it really never recovered. In the meantime, the Ottoman Turks took over Asia Minor and fought Timur’s minions to a mutually destructive standstill, with the Arab lands as the unwilling battlefield. That gave Byzantium a breather, but only for a short while. Ultimately, the Ottomans took over the entire Middle East except for Persia, and misruled it for centuries.

Arabs are totally wrong in blaming the Crusaders for destroying their world. They were already ruled by Turks when the Crusaders came, and were ruled by other Turks when the Crusaders left, all the way down to the 20th Century.

When it comes to the Fourth Crusade, there was plenty of blame to go around, but the Pope did not bear any of it. It has to be remembered that the Frankish knights numbered perhaps as many as 8,000 men. The Byzantines promised (among other things) 10,000 Byzantine troops to aid in retaking the Holy Land. But the two warred on each other, and it came to nothing.

8,000 Franks conquered Byzantium in the Fourth Crusade. It was a bad thing, and the Pope excommunicated them all for it, but again, both sides were blameworthy. The Byzantines did recover from it, though it may be argued that they would have been stronger but for the Fourth Crusade.

Regardless, Constantinople, which had been taken by 8,000 Franks without artillery was later overwhelmed by 200,000 Ottoman Turks with the very latest artillery. It had absolutely no chance against a force like that, Fourth Crusade or no Fourth Crusade. It is unlikely that the western Christian countries could have come to the Byzantines’ aid in sufficient force to have saved them from that onslaught. Indeed, the later attempted Ottoman conquest of western Europe was a close thing, even though the westerners had shorter communication and supply lines.

The “western end” of the Crusades was more successful; that is, the eviction of Muslims from France and the Christian reconquest of Spain. Ultimately, the Austrians, Germans and Poles prevented the Ottomans from overwhelming western Europe. But again, it was a close thing. The Ottomans got all the way to the gates of Vienna, and had Vienna fallen, northwestern Europe would have been open to them. The Ottomans took the whole of the Balkans to the Adriatic, even so.
The Romans IIRC were on campaign in Anotlia when they were attacked at Constantinople. They were making gains against the Turks and the bulk of their forces were in the field which is why Constantinople only had a garrison of around 15000. After the sack their capital was completely devoid of any kind of wealth, all was taken with the crusader army. Unable to fund a new army, they had to abandon Anotolia/Asia Minor to retake what they could of their homeland. They were an extremely rich power so I believe they would have been able to resist the Ottomans (through the use of mercanaries mostly). Even if it were to fall the Turk casualties would have been MUCH higher. Bah I like debating such things though 😃
 
Well why dont you look it up and educate yourself on the matter and stop your willful ignorance? Ive given you all the information you need, should I go over to you place and google it for you? No, here is the next best thing -

lmgtfy.com/?q=THE+PARCHMENT+OF+CHINON+

Only one Templar admitted to doing such things while all other denied it.

You just seem like a Templar hater and go against the church to condemn them.
Re3van, let me add to your link your link aswell. If Lazlo won’t agree with what you have, then allow me to use more modern research from reknown historians who’ve looked into this stuff. Lazlo then could buy the books himself and find out for himself.

I’ll begin with Helen Nicholson’s book, Knight Templar 1120-1312 (Osprey Publishings). You can find more information on this book here, ospreypublishing.com/store/Knight-Templar-1120–1312_9781841766706 and even get a sneak peek inside here, amazon.com/Knight-Templar-1120-1312-Warrior-Nicholson/dp/1841766704/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1296783678&sr=8-2
and you can buy the book here on Borders.com, borders.com/online/store/TitleDetail?sku=1841766704

In the book, Helen Nicholson states, in chapter 4: Belief and Belonging, page 17, paragraph 1, Sentence 1-2:

“The Templars were all Catholic Christians, and followed the religious beliefs of their day, but because they were warriors rather than literary men, they wrote very little about themselves. To get an impressionof their own beliefs we have to rely mainly on what other people wrote about them or for them.”
Page 17, paragraph 1, Sentence 4-5:

“Because of the methods of the used during heresy trials at that time to ensure that the accused confessed to the accusations, the confessions made by the Templars in France would now be regarded as ‘unsafe’, and no modern court would accept them. However, information that they gave which was not a confession may be reliable, particularly when it is supported by other information from outside the Order.”

Page 17, paragraph 2, Sentence 1-6:

“This evidence shows that the Templars’ beliefs were like those of the other knights in Western European society at the time: deeply held and straightforward. Although churchmen had traditionally doubted wether men who shed blood and killed others could please God and be admitted to Heaven, the warriors had no such doubts. Epic literature produced for reciting to warriors in the nobles’ castles and halls depicts the role of the warrior in society as noble and glorious, and fighting as part of his duty to God. Indeed, fighting was depicted as being much more valuable to God than the monks’ duty of praying, because warriors defended Christians and Christian territory and so, in a manner of speaking, protected God. According to this warrior viewpoint, when the crusaders captured Jerusalem and the holy places in the First Crusade they were recovering Christ’s territory, as was their duty as Christ’s warriors. The Templar’s own Rule depicted the Order as a re-creation of knighthood, in which knights served God rather than their own interests: ‘this religious order represents the flowering and resuscitation of the order of knighthood’. But in fact the knightly literature of the time indicates that many knights believed that they were already doing this; joining the Templars would be a way of taking a step yet further in virtue.”

Page 18, paragraph 3, sentence 1:

“When the brothers joined the Order of the Temple they took vows to ‘God and Our lady Saint Mary’, the Virgin Mary, mother of Jesus.”

“…”

I’ll continue adding more in the next post.*
 
Page 18-19, paragraph 6, sentence 2-11:

“In England, in the third quarter of the 12th century, an anonymous cleric produced a translation of the Book of Judges in the Old Testament for the Templars to use. This tells how the children of Israel defended the Holy Land that they had captured with God’s help. There is an obvious parallel between the situation described in the Book of Judges and the Templars in the Holy Land in the 12th century, defending the Holy Land that they believed crusaders had captured with God’s help. Some other religious works were translated for the use of the English Templars, including an account of the coming of the end of the world. Medieval Christians believed that the world would end because of a figure called ‘Antichrist’, the opponent of Jesus Christ. Some Christian writers believed that Mohammad, the “great” prophet of Islam, was Antichrist. Some also believed that the crusades and the recapture of the holy places in the First Crusade were part of the ‘End Times’ and the coming of Christ’s kingdom. But before Christ could return Antichrist and his forces, the Muslims, must be defeated. Therefore the Templars, champions of Christendom against the Muslims, were in the front line of the war against Antichrist and needed to be well informed on the subject. The poem about Antichrist warned them that would be persecuted and face great dangers, and that they must stand firm in their faith and believe that if they were victorious they would be rewarded by Christ.”

…]

Page 20, paragraph 8, sentence 2-3:

“In 1139 Pope Innocent II, etting out the religious privileges that the Order of the Temple would have (Such as being able to build chapels and employ priests), wrote: 'Like true Israelites an allusion to God’s people in the Old Testament] and warrior most equipped for divine battles, truly on fire with the flame of Christian love, you fulfil in your deeds that gospel saying:“Greater love has no man than this, that a man kay down his life for his friends” - words echoed by many other popes after him. The martyr-saints venerated by the Templars, such as St. George and St. Euphemia, would have encouraged them to give up their lives in Christ’s service.”

That’s all I can add on this chapter.

But if none of this is willing to persuade Lazlo, then I simply can’t do business with him. It’s like getting a bad leader to go to war with you. One bad call and you get shot. It’s unacceptable.

-MontChevalier
 
Thank you for participating in the discussion. The thread is now closed, since it seems to have deviated from the original question.

However, since many of you seem interested in the history of the Crusades. Feel free to open a thread on that subject.

Thomas Casey
Moderator
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top