Defending Christ's Church

[catholic03]

Pax Christi:

Recently, I have needed to defend the Church’s doctrines because I have a Protestant friend. I have posted about this before. However, there are specific doctrines and issues I need advice on defending.

1. Salvation by faith and good works - despite scripture verses that plainly state ‘salvation by faith and good works’, my friend likes to say things such as “this verse was simply saying that good works come naturally by faith, and was not defending the doctrine of the Catholic Church”.
2. The role of the Blessed Virgin in the Church - his Bible says ‘favoured one’, instead of ‘full of grace’.
3. Papal primacy.
4. Purgatory.
5. Praying to the saints.
6. This is something that he always uses against me. He likes to talk about the Church’s wealth. He says that Christ is disgusted at the art and decoration of the Vatican City. He says that Christ is sad that priests and Bishops wear intricate clothes. I explain to him that with 1.2 billion Catholics, and being the largest humanitarian organisation on Earth, it needs to have money. He does not understand, however, why the Church has spend so much money on beauty and decoration. How am I to explain this?

Evangelicals can be hard to talk with, but I must do my best.

God Bless

 

[awesomecatholic]

Many protestants Catholics worship the saints,you must tell your friend it is not true. As for Purgatory, mention Corinthians 1 3:15, I suggest you mention Matthew 16:18 and explain what that verse really means. Tell your friend,if the Jesus had not given authority to Peter,the church wouldn’t even exist today. The role of Our Lady is mothering us,she is so important that she said yes to God when she could have said no and we would burn in hell for all eternity. It is true that faith and good works help us,but the sacraments are really what’s needed and without those we are missing something. Mention both the Eucharist and confession and go through those verses in the bible. The decorations and artwork are used for the glory of God. Good luck!

 

[stpurl]

1. Somewhere I read that the Vatican’s annual budget is somewhat less than the budget of the average US private college. Kind of puts things in perspective.

Also, much of the so-called ‘wealth of the Church’ was freely given by ‘the people in the pews’ who raised the money and donated the labor to 'give God the best. The Church has been in countries like Italy like centuries and centuries. It has had plenty of time for people to build churches and to decorate them.

Look at some of today’s Protestant churches with mega cathedrals, amped up sounds, all kinds of gadgets and gizmos, and people begging for money money money. Look at pastor JoeBillyJed with his $1000 suits and his jets and his cars and his mini mansion. Why is that OK? Look, for heaven’s sake, at the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Church of England. Look at many Lutheran churches. Look at the Orthodox churches if you want real decoration and art, especially comparing to U.S. churches built from the 70s on.

Then ask him if he knows what the Jewish temples were like. How the Jewish priests dressed. What the Ark looked like (hint, lots of gold and silver, linen ie. expensive clothing, jeweled thread, etc.) And who asked for it that way? God!!!

Remember, all that ‘beauty’ doesn’t belong to the bishops, cardinals, or Pope. The Pope can’t turn around and sell off paintings or statues or real estate, because it isn’t **his. **

 

[End_Timer]

Mary is the FIRST & FOREMOST Christian
She is forever the spouse of the Holy Spirit & mother INDEED of Emmanuel
Mary is closer to God thru love than any created being.
She was exalted so as to be a spiritual mother to all the living

 

[DMSP]

Well I’m just a protestant considering to convert to Catholicism, so I’ll try to share some of the things that made me reconsider Protestantism in regards to your question.

Salvation by faith and good works - despite scripture verses that plainly state ‘salvation by faith and good works’, my friend likes to say things such as “ this verse was simply saying that good works come naturally by faith, and was not defending the doctrine of the Catholic Church ”.

Correct me if I’m wrong but I thought that works come naturally by faith was what the Catholic Church teaches. Here’s a joint declaration on the doctrines of justification by the Catholic Church and the Lutheran World Federation http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p..._31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

I quote, “We confess together that good works - a Christian life lived in faith, hope and love - follow justification and are its fruits. When the justified live in Christ and act in the grace they receive, they bring forth, in biblical terms, good fruit”

The role of the Blessed Virgin in the Church - his Bible says ‘favoured one’, instead of ‘full of grace’.

Well translations are just that, translation it’s not exact science, the way I see it comparing translation is not an argument for either side. For myself I never see the Marian doctrines as an idolatry even as full protestant, so I could accept the Marian doctrines on the basis of the Church authority after I rejected sola scriptura.

Papal primacy

Well, I can’t help you there this is in part why I’m still not Catholic yet

Purgatory

Again, correct me if I’m wrong but purgatory is in the deuterocanonical so it seems a matter more of whether the deuterocanonicals belongs in the bible or not

Praying to the saints

As I understood it, it is more akin to how a protestant would ask a close friend or pastor to pray for them. I think that it really depends on whether he accepted the idea that the Saints are still part of the church in Heaven, lutheranism to my knowledge affirms the idea of Church Triumphant. If we do affirm the idea of Church Triumphant, then for me there should be no doctrinal difficulty asking the dead to pray any more than asking my pastor to pray for me

This is something that he always uses against me. He likes to talk about the Church’s wealth. He says that Christ is disgusted at the art and decoration of the Vatican City…

Well, to me the beauty of Catholicism is the one that draws me to Catholicism in the first place, the art, music, and architecture of the Catholic Church really invoke a numinous feeling for me. And I don’t really see anything wrong against extravagance if it’s in service to God’s glory and does not interfere with the Church mission to help the needy.

 

[Todd_Easton]

1. Purgatory.

Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf? (1 Corinthians 15:29)

Perhaps the above verse can be used to help support the idea of purgatory or at least the idea that the living can do something to benefit at least some of the dead. If they didn’t think they could somehow benefit the dead, “why are people baptized on their behalf?”

This might be especially useful if “baptism” is taken in a metaphorical sense, as Jesus sometimes seems to do (Luke 12:50; Mark 10:38-39), to mean “suffering.” Then, that is not too far from the Catholic practice of praying, fasting, and giving alms on behalf of the dead, nor from the sin offerings and prayers offered by Judas Maccabeus and his men on behalf of their dead Jewish comrades in the deuterocanonical book, 2 Maccabees 12:42-45.

 

[catholic03]

Thank you for your wonderful replies. In response to the Protestant’s question on salvation, here is my understanding:

Believing in Christ does not necessarily bring good works. However, being a faithful believer in Christ certainly does. Now, Protestants believe that no matter your sins, so long as you have faith in Christ, you are saved. Us Catholics believe that belief in Christ saves the believer. However, despite one’s belief in Christ, if you commit a mortal sin, you are damned. Therefore, being a faithful believer in Christ means you will naturally do good works. However, simply believing in Christ does not always mean this. Papal primacy is obvious by how Jesus acted towards St Peter. Purgatory is in the deuterocanonicals - Christ quoted from them and purgatory is indirectly mentioned in the New Testament. I suppose that many Evangelicals have an issue with the beauty of the Catholic Church - we know that such beauty pleases God because it shows him praise. Wealth pleases God because it enables us to help the poor and lead Christ’s Church.

I hope you become Catholic! It is the one true church!