Defending cohabitation statistics

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journey137

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What do you say to someone that says the negative cohabitation statistics are skewed because so many people cohabitate?
 
Journey,

Hello and welcome to the Catholic Answers Forums. I hope you have a blessed and fruitful time here. If you’re signing up again after the Great Crash of '06, welcome back!

You (or the people you quote) will have to be a bit more definite about what they mean. Having a large sample does not skew the statistics; if anything, it makes them more believable. If anybody says that it does skew the sample, it is up to him to explain what he means and why he is right.
  • Liberian
 
Hi Liberian. I am a victim of the Great Crash of '06. Nicely put by the way, haha.

The person I am talking with about cohabitation has the opinion that while a large number of people took part in the study, the ratio of noncohabitators to cohabitators is so small that it skews the findings.

I’m going to throw out some totally ficticious numbers here to try and explain her point. Say we have group A that does not live together before marriage and there are 20 people in that group. Group B does live together before marriage and say there are 20000 people in that group. She thinks that since the numbers of group A relative to group B are so small they don’t produce a valid result. I don’t know how to explain that it would be valid despite the fact that the numbers are so different. Hope that helps clarify things a bit.
 
The statistics are flawed, not because of numbers, but because of the moral sensitivity differences in couples who co-habit and those who do not. Those who co-habit are not so likely to be sqeamish about divorce or adultry etc. Those who don’t cohabit, are more likely to have a greater resistance to other bad things as well. Co-habiters are less scrupulous about breaking the moral codes or they wouldn’t co-habit…
 
Its not so much that the statistics are flawed, but rather they are being used to bring forth an invalid conclusion. It is similar to the ones on NFP. It is proposed that couples using NFP have a lower seperation/divorce rate because of its use. What is going on here is that couple using NFP and who do not co-habit are more strongly into the ethic of moral behavior and are more strongly motivated by those beliefs than those who would disregard the moral imperatives. It is not the behavior that is driving the results. It is the relative strengths of character.
 
Journey,

Thank you for the clarification. The relative sizes of the two sample pools don’t affect the statistics; as long as both groups of people (cohabiters and non-cohabiters) are large enough that the statistics are valid, the relative sizes do not make a difference.

Regarding the other response you got from “rwoehmke”, the problem he brings up is not one of statistics but is rather one of establishing cause. The statistics regarding divorce will hold no matter what the differences in groups are. The problem comes when you try to say that “cohabitation causes divorce” based on these statistics. In order to do that, you will need to find people with equally strong moral values in both groups (which will be kind of difficult, as he pointed out) and run the statistics only on those people.
  • Liberian
 
Most statistics are based on proportional groups, so the cohabitating versus non-cohabitating groups in the study should have similar numbers. I have yet to know of researchers who target two specific groups using a preportionally larger number of people from one of the groups than from the other. However, something to look at is who is the sponsor of the statistic. If you ever study statistics you will soon discover that statistic can ALWAYS be skewed based on what the sponsoring group desires to prove, that is why it is so important to know who is sponsoring the statistic to understand how biased it may or may not be.
 
Thanks to everyone that replied here. The people I was talking with about this subject don’t agree with me at all. Everyone was saying how you have to live together to really get to know someone, that it strengthens your relationship, that their church (not catholics) can’t tell them what to do, and more stuff along those lines. Basically I just wanted to give another side to the girl asking for opinions about living together, so I researched here and dug up those statistics to show her and explain to her why we think it’s wrong to live together. She definately has an unusual circumstance and, from what I know of her situation, it’s either live with her boyfriend or live on the streets. The thing is that she is having relations with him while living with him, and she doesn’t think that’s wrong either. When she went to her pastor to talk about marrage, he told her they would have to have separate rooms and stop having relations until the wedding, which is one year away, or he wouldn’t marry him. Everyone else was telling her to just have a justice of the peace or another preacher do it, and I think she’s listening to them instead of me.
 
Does she believe in Heaven? God? If so, does she recognize that premarital relations is a sin? Is she afraid that is she no longer has sex with her boyfriend that he’ll kick her out? If so, then the prospect of marriage isn’t based on love (or the desire to help the other get to Heaven) and why would she commit to a man who doesn’t truly love her enough to even sacrifice sex temporarily? Make her explain and defend her actions, she’s the one trying to justify her situation, not you. Hold her accountable to the TRUTH even if she doesn’t like it. Overall, pray for the best, for God’s Will in this situation.

As one who use to live with my daughter’s father (immediately before and after her birth) when we decided to take the difficult road and live seperately, while it wasn’t easy, our frienship is now a friendship based on true, Christian love and not hormones. I realize now that back when I thought we should get married (when we were living together) I wasn’t even close to being ready b/c I really didn’t understand that true love means denial of one’s own desires and selfishness.
 
journey137 said:
Thanks to everyone that replied here. The people I was talking with about this subject don’t agree with me at all. Everyone was saying how you have to live together to really get to know someone, that it strengthens your relationship, that their church (not catholics) can’t tell them what to do, and more stuff along those lines. Basically I just wanted to give another side to the girl asking for opinions about living together
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Have you looked at the research of The Marriage Project at Rutgers University?

If your friend insists on made up arguments about faulty statistics, that do not make sense in the light of actual statistical methods, then there is little hope (I believe) of convincing her of anything. She does not want to be convinced.
 
I agree that she does not want to be convinced, but I think that she honestly doesn’t understand the math behind it that makes the statistics valid. She is in a bad situation right now and she is living with her fiance. Her mother kicked her out of her house about a year ago and she’s been living with him ever since. She says that they could handle not having sex, but that they couldn’t stand not being able to sleep together because she has nightmares and other sleep problems and having him next to her comforts her and allows her to sleep at night. She insists that if they were to live in separate rooms that she wouldn’t be able to get any rest and she would be a total bear and it would hurt their relationship. I don’t think they’re only together for the sex, but neither one of them want to stop having it and I don’t think either one of them think it’s wrong either. Right now praying for them is all that can be done.
 
Journey,

That is an interesting post you made, particularly the line about people saying that “their church (not catholics) can’t tell them what to do.” If I may ask, what is their church for besides telling them what to do? Do they really expect the Author of the Ten Commandments not to care about morality?

It’s too bad that the woman in question is listening to those who would lead her astray. You have apparently done your part, though; her response is a matter between her and God.
  • Liberian
 
They prescribe to the general protestant notion that the church is there and is a good thing as long as it doesnt interfere with life and the way they want to live it. If it interferes then it’s wrong and let’s run off and make another church so we can do what we want and still get to heaven.

It is very sad in my eyes. I’m sorry if I offended any protestants with that comment but it’s what I’ve seen happen in my community many times over.
 
rwoehmke said:
Its not so much that the statistics are flawed, but rather they are being used to bring forth an invalid conclusion. It is similar to the ones on NFP. It is proposed that couples using NFP have a lower seperation/divorce rate because of its use. What is going on here is that couple using NFP and who do not co-habit are more strongly into the ethic of moral behavior and are more strongly motivated by those beliefs than those who would disregard the moral imperatives. It is not the behavior that is driving the results. It is the relative strengths of character.
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No, I think that’s begging the question. Our behaviour is not only the RESULT of our character, to a great extent our behaviour FORMS our character. Especially if the behavious continues for a long time. Naturally we develop rationalisations to justify our long-term and continuing behaviour , otherwise we couldn’t live with ourselves if we didn’t change it.

Many people of high moral character hesitatingly make the decision to cohabitate or to use contraception. Over time, this behaviour corrupts their character so that they are far more easily persuaded to make the decision to divorce. IMO it is eminently valid to conclude from the statistics that cohabitation and/or contraception (especially if carried on for a long time) “cause” divorce.

It’s heartbreaking that there are so many young women who are prepared to settle for cohabitation with a man who refuses to commit to marriage, on the vague hope that he might change his mind. Listen ladies, I’m a man, I know: if he’s not prepared to marry you, to wait until marriage to have sexual intercourse with you, and to willingly father your children, HE’S JUST NOT THAT INTO YOU. You’ll find someone else who IS good enough for you who is more than willing to do all this. i.e. someone who loves YOU, not just someone who loves having sex with you.

As for the young lady in question here, she should deal with her psychological problems first, starting with ending the cohabitation which is obviously contributing to her problem. Until she conquers her phobia of sleeping alone, she could share a bedroom with a relative or a girlfriend.
 
journey137 said:
Hi Liberian. I am a victim of the Great Crash of '06. Nicely put by the way, haha.

The person I am talking with about cohabitation has the opinion that while a large number of people took part in the study, the ratio of noncohabitators to cohabitators is so small that it skews the findings.

I’m going to throw out some totally ficticious numbers here to try and explain her point. Say we have group A that does not live together before marriage and there are 20 people in that group. Group B does live together before marriage and say there are 20000 people in that group. She thinks that since the numbers of group A relative to group B are so small they don’t produce a valid result. I don’t know how to explain that it would be valid despite the fact that the numbers are so different. Hope that helps clarify things a bit.
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Ah, statistics! Just what study are you debating about, btw?

Her suggestion that the small number of non-cohabitors in the sample (is it really that small?) ivalidates the study doesn’t hold water. The fact that very few vegetarians show up in a study of diet & health doesn’t invalidate conclusions about vegetarianism vs. a regular American diet

What really matters is the size of the total sample and whether it is a valid sample.
 
journey137 said:
I agree that she does not want to be convinced, but I think that she honestly doesn’t understand the math behind it that makes the statistics valid. She is in a bad situation right now and she is living with her fiance. Her mother kicked her out of her house about a year ago and she’s been living with him ever since. She says that they could handle not having sex, but that they couldn’t stand not being able to sleep together because she has nightmares and other sleep problems and having him next to her comforts her and allows her to sleep at night. She insists that if they were to live in separate rooms that she wouldn’t be able to get any rest and she would be a total bear and it would hurt their relationship. I don’t think they’re only together for the sex, but neither one of them want to stop having it and I don’t think either one of them think it’s wrong either. Right now praying for them is all that can be done.
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Hmm, sounds more like a co-dependent relationship and that she has some serious psychological problems rather than a general move-in.

She needs to get some serious help before moving in, becoming engaged or even thinking of marrying.

In place of professional help and guidance, she is using her boyfriend as a crutch and excuse not to resolve her issues. In turn, he is taking advantage of her.

How sad.
 
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