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PA650
Guest
A worthwhile statement:
Defending the Holy Spirit, Defending the Second Vatican Council
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Warrenton
Guest
This concept can be overworked. One could say, using the same thinking, that the Holy Ghost was with the archbishop in Boston when he failed to take appropriate action against priests that were having sex with members of their flocks.
This error is closely related to the error that perceives the intention of the Holy Ghost in error, simply because the error results in someone curing it, with a resulting benefit. Pontius Pilate still made a mistake, even though his decision was required to bring about the crucifiction and hence the resurrection.
The trust that we have in the guidance of the Holy Ghost does not require a suspension of logic or our powers of observation.
The fact that when history is viewed as a totality it will be evident the way in which the Holy Ghost guided the Church does not take away the possibility that men and women within the Church’s history can err. It means only that when they err, the Holy Ghost will continue to guide the Church away from destruction, which would otherwise occur. Rome fell because of her leaders’ mistakes, the Church of Rome has not because of the Holy Ghost.
It is not heretical, schismatic, or anti-Catholic to suggest that this or that decision, whether in council or not, was a mistake.
J
jahoal
Guest
The Holy Spirit guides the church in matters of discipline. The first council, the one listed in Acts 15 was called to answer the question of whether or not Greek Christens need to be circumcised for Salvation. There conclusion in verse 28, "For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things… It goes on to list four disciplines regarding eating meat and one rule on sexual morality. They did not proclaim dogma but rather decided a disciplinary issue and prescribed disciplines and professed the guidance of the Holy Spirit in doing so.
In as much as some said circumcision is necessary for salvation there may have been a dogmatic question answered here. However they did not proclaim Dogma in the same since that Trent did. It seems to me to be more a question of disciplines.
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aTraditionalist
Guest
Sometimes the V-II conversation gets old. I look at it like this:
Did V-II strengthen the Church?
IMO no.
Are there more Catholics now?
No, recent polls show a huge decline.
Are more people attending Mass?
Just look around and get your own answer. I’ve traveled a lot. Some parishes do better than others. One thing is for sure, parking and seating is not an issue.
My problem is that the changes seem to try to appease Protestant heretics and in the process robbed Catholics of their heritage and tradition. Modernism is the root cause and I don’t doubt the sincerity of the council but they were dooped. It’s time to keep what works and dump the dead weight. With such a overall failed agenda, I don’t see Our Lord’s blessing of the council’s changes.
Posted from Catholic.com App for Android
Did V-II strengthen the Church?
IMO no.
Are there more Catholics now?
No, recent polls show a huge decline.
Are more people attending Mass?
Just look around and get your own answer. I’ve traveled a lot. Some parishes do better than others. One thing is for sure, parking and seating is not an issue.
My problem is that the changes seem to try to appease Protestant heretics and in the process robbed Catholics of their heritage and tradition. Modernism is the root cause and I don’t doubt the sincerity of the council but they were dooped. It’s time to keep what works and dump the dead weight. With such a overall failed agenda, I don’t see Our Lord’s blessing of the council’s changes.
Posted from Catholic.com App for Android
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Megan7
Guest
Thanks for thread & post, will read later on.
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bjryman
Guest
Just look at the current actions of our Pope. The problem that he sees is very real. The strength of Christianity is it’s message of recognition of our sins, repentance, acceptance of Christ’s forgiveness and then learning to practice walking our own pathway to holiness. All else is secondary. Why? Because without the clear message of Salvation ringing in the world’s forum, we are reduced to rules and agreements about interpretation of the details.
The Protestants in that regard have it “right”. The Church has acknowledged that “elements of salvation exist in other Christian religions”. Those elements are sufficient for full salvation. That, then is the key.
The Catholic Church is like any other organization in that it has its own tradition, and references viewpoint (in our case scriptural reference). Thus it has a view of how a Christian should “in full communion with the Church” act. BUT…it also recognizes that others not stepping lockstep in line, or not being in FULL communion will still be saved.
That is similar to McDonald’s restaurant having the claim to the original milkshake and fry…even though other’s came along so we could “have it our way”. Both provide food, but only one can claim to be McDonald’s
I am quite relieved that our new Pope is setting the example for once again placing a priority on the message of salvation. I am also happy that he explains that this message must be adapted to the current cultural conditions existing in the world.
Finally, even as it applies to the Latin Mass, he has recently noted that nothing should take away from the excellent work of Vatican II and the urging of the lay people to engage in evangelization and living the life of a compassionate, forgiving, nonjudgemental Christian.
He is truly a Conservative with a real world sense of the appropriate Modern Day Message.
The Protestants in that regard have it “right”. The Church has acknowledged that “elements of salvation exist in other Christian religions”. Those elements are sufficient for full salvation. That, then is the key.
The Catholic Church is like any other organization in that it has its own tradition, and references viewpoint (in our case scriptural reference). Thus it has a view of how a Christian should “in full communion with the Church” act. BUT…it also recognizes that others not stepping lockstep in line, or not being in FULL communion will still be saved.
That is similar to McDonald’s restaurant having the claim to the original milkshake and fry…even though other’s came along so we could “have it our way”. Both provide food, but only one can claim to be McDonald’s
I am quite relieved that our new Pope is setting the example for once again placing a priority on the message of salvation. I am also happy that he explains that this message must be adapted to the current cultural conditions existing in the world.
Finally, even as it applies to the Latin Mass, he has recently noted that nothing should take away from the excellent work of Vatican II and the urging of the lay people to engage in evangelization and living the life of a compassionate, forgiving, nonjudgemental Christian.
He is truly a Conservative with a real world sense of the appropriate Modern Day Message.
T
TimothyH
Guest
Yeah, a two year old thread by banned members…
I think CAF sometimes gets flooded by people who come here specifically to dredge up old threads or start new ones about Vatican II and the decline of the Church. It comes in cycles. There seem to be more of them during the past week or so.
-Tim-
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bjryman
Guest
OK, I didn’t “dredge it up”, but why wouldn’t a newcomer want to engage in this dialog from a fresh perspective.
One of the problems I have with this forum is that a certain number of “old timers” seem to resent that new folks are here for the first time, and looking for the same answers the old timers did, long ago.
These are the topics of interest…why would anyone suggest that we somehow have moved beyond them, or that they have been answered?
Very frustrating, and will over time devolve the forum in to mostly like thinking individuals who believe they have provided the answers
One of the problems I have with this forum is that a certain number of “old timers” seem to resent that new folks are here for the first time, and looking for the same answers the old timers did, long ago.
These are the topics of interest…why would anyone suggest that we somehow have moved beyond them, or that they have been answered?
Very frustrating, and will over time devolve the forum in to mostly like thinking individuals who believe they have provided the answers
J
Jaberwocky
Guest
I am not sure why you posted this but some of what you have written above is actually wrong.
While the Church does hold that one can be theoretically saved outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church, it also holds that this is very difficult due to the work of the devil in the world and man’s tendency to justify falsities when he doesn’t want the truth to be true.
You can find this teaching even in modern documents like Humani Generis (exact quote below is included in the Catechism of the Catholic Church)
“Though human reason is, strictly speaking, truly capable by its own natural power and light of attaining to a true and certain knowledge of the one personal God, who watches over and controls the world by his providence, and of the natural law written in our hearts by the Creator; yet there are many obstacles which prevent reason from the effective and fruitful use of this inborn faculty. For the truths that concern the relations between God and man wholly transcend the visible order of things, and, if they are translated into human action and influence it, they call for self-surrender and abnegation. The human mind, in its turn, is hampered in the attaining of such truths, not only by the impact of the senses and the imagination, but also by disordered appetites which are the consequences of original sin. So it happens that men in such matters easily persuade themselves that what they would not like to be true is false or at least doubtful.”
and Lumen Gentium
“But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator. Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”, the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.”
What you said therefore is actually not accurate. Protestants did not get it right. The Church acknowledges that elements are present in all other religions that will point them in the right direction to attain salvation. But, she also acknowledges that these religions (including Protestantism) contains errors which if the adherent were to follow, will lead to possible damnation due to rejection of God’s Grace. That alone makes it highly unlikely that a person will actually be saved while following a non-Catholic religion.
This is why the Church sees that she must evangelize (as well as instruct her own) and bring people in to the Catholic Church. It is her responsibility to make known the truth to these people so that they may leave the errors behind and come to the fullness of the faith.
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Rocky24
Guest
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bjryman
Guest
Well, I checked again with the deacons and here is an answer from one on the subject. The info from the Synod of Bishops clearly indicates that entry to heaven is available via salvation, and that salvations efficacy is evident outside the Church. Here is the reply:
Well, like every thing else in the Catholic Church, it is complicated. The Dogmatic Constitution on the church, for example states “Therefore those could not be saved who refuse either to enter the church, or to remain in it, while knowing that it was founded by God through Christ as required for salvation.”
**However, the decree on Ecumenism promulgated by the Vatican II probably has the most definitive answer. This excerpt below is from the section related to Protestant denominations. The fourth paragraph encapsulates the essence of the teaching, **although the following paragraph places some nuances on it. This is a recurring theme in other council documents, and then some of the follow-up documents by the Synod of bishops. Hope this helps. P
“The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect. …it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ’s body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.”
“Moreover, some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, belong by right to the one Church of Christ.”
“The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation.”
“It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe
them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.”
“Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as Communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those who through Him were born again into one body, and with Him quickened to newness of life- that unity which the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Tradition of the Church proclaim. For it is only through Christ’s Catholic Church, which is ‘the all-embracing means of salvation,’ that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation. We believe that Our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, in order to establish the one Body of Christ on earth to which all should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God.”
Well, like every thing else in the Catholic Church, it is complicated. The Dogmatic Constitution on the church, for example states “Therefore those could not be saved who refuse either to enter the church, or to remain in it, while knowing that it was founded by God through Christ as required for salvation.”
**However, the decree on Ecumenism promulgated by the Vatican II probably has the most definitive answer. This excerpt below is from the section related to Protestant denominations. The fourth paragraph encapsulates the essence of the teaching, **although the following paragraph places some nuances on it. This is a recurring theme in other council documents, and then some of the follow-up documents by the Synod of bishops. Hope this helps. P
“The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect. …it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ’s body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.”
“Moreover, some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, belong by right to the one Church of Christ.”
“The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation.”
“It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe
them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.”
“Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as Communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those who through Him were born again into one body, and with Him quickened to newness of life- that unity which the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Tradition of the Church proclaim. For it is only through Christ’s Catholic Church, which is ‘the all-embracing means of salvation,’ that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation. We believe that Our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, in order to establish the one Body of Christ on earth to which all should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God.”
J
Jaberwocky
Guest
Have you read Dominus Iesus that was specifically released to correct misunderstandings?
The above documents you cite only say the obvious => that all men are given sufficient Grace to be saved. Lumen Gentium and Dominus Iesus states how that Grace is often rejected by the people due to deceiving themselves and the temptations of the devil. That is why we must share the Catholic faith to them to free them of the deception and errors of their faith and own ideas.
That is what you don’t seem to take in to account.
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maryjk
Guest
It isn’t that "old timers’ don’t want new folks here.
We are just following the rules.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=486782
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