Defending the Indefensible

[Roseeurekacross]

Its not a claim, needs no debunking, no defending, no denying.
Clergy, Religious and Laity raped and abused children.

We can’t say oh well look at all those public teachers/ scout leaders/ babysitters who are not Catholic. They did it too. That wont help victims, families or anyone attempting to make sense of it.

We must, in order to heal and give people the validation and help they need, say

Yes, IT happened. Evil grew in the pews. Its gone now. We routed it out. We, the entire church, own it. We are taking measures to ensure it never happens again.

As a group, a community, if we don’t own it as a criminal act within our group, we just bury our heads and leads to ideal culture of denial down the track , so evil
revisits the scene of its crimes.

 

[Wesrock]

Its not a claim, needs no debunking, no defending, no denying.
Clergy, Religious and Laity raped and abused children.

We can’t say oh well look at all those public teachers/ scout leaders/ babysitters who are not Catholic. They did it too. That wont help victims, families or anyone attempting to make sense of it.

We must, in order to heal and give people the validation and help they need, say

Yes, IT happened. Evil grew in the pews. Its gone now. We routed it out. We, the entire church, own it. We are taking measures to ensure it never happens again.

As a group, a community, if we don’t own it as a criminal act within our group, we just bury our heads and leads to ideal culture of denial down the track , so evil
revisits the scene of its crimes.

We do need to own it. But we don’t need to pretend that being Catholic makes one more predisposed towards child molestation than the average person or that the Church considers child molestation to be a moral act, the way some imply.

 

[Rau]

To defend the Church as a well intentioned body with much good to do and teach is not at all the same as to defend indefensible acts of some of its leaders. There is no defense for the heinous acts of some priests and the disgraceful behaviour of some bishops who failed to address it, and none should be offered.

 

[josh987654321]

We can’t say oh well look at all those public teachers/ scout leaders/ babysitters who are not Catholic.

I never said “Oh well” I said that it was and is also prevalent among other areas too not just in the Catholic Church, as these people will simply go and infiltrate wherever they can to get easy access to children, thus we must always be vigilant and be on guard.

We must, in order to heal and give people the validation and help they need, say

It depends what kind of ‘validation’ your talking about, like I said, it’s not about debunking it, it’s about putting them blame where it really belongs, on the head of the Catholic faith is wrong because the Church has always condemned it.

Yes, IT happened. Evil grew in the pews. Its gone now. We routed it out.

We hope it’s gone now, but all should remain vigilant, there should be reasonable measures in place to stop this sort of thing from happening again.

We, the entire church, own it.

No!

I have never had any part of it and myself, Christ and the Church I belong to, with my head held high and with no apologies, have always condemned such acts!

As a group, a community, if we don’t own it as a criminal act within our group, we just bury our heads and leads to ideal culture of denial down the track , so evil

Not true. If you act guilty, you are guilty. I’m not guilty, nor is the Church which has always condemned such acts! The ones responsible were wolves in sheep’s clothing who infiltrated the Church to get access to kids, they are the guilty and should be in jail and will be judged for it when they die.

I’m a Roman Catholic with my head held high and with no apologies. Luke 9:26

I hope this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[jcrichton]

Thank you all for your responses. If he starts, which I know he will, I’m going to stick with my gut reaction, keep my cool, and add some of these replies if he pushes. I think I might write down some quick, short responses just in case he gets me upset and rattled. He usually talks over me, so he really isn’t interested in a discussion he just unloads on me.

Hi!

…sadly, the most loud against the Church are the least who would sincerely seek God and the Truth; they simply employ whatever they feel is “good ammo” to rock/raze the boat.

…here’s one undeniable truth… a person cannot argue with or debase another if the object of the onslaught removes his/herself from the episode… yes, you may feel you lost some grounds buy removing yourself from the attack… but what is the value of “peace of mind?”

My older brothers left the Church and their ultimate goal was to convince Mom to leave the Church as well… one such effort got so tangled in the web that Mom was told that it did not matter what “church”/group she would join as long as she left the Church… it is not about reason; it is not about Truth; it is not about righteousness… it’s all about ‘putting the Church in her place.’

I’m not saying that your brother has reached such plateau… but it seems that he’ heading there.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

OP I am in a Parish, a Diocese , that is infamous for past sexual abuse of children by Priests, Brothers, Nuns ( yes Nuns) and Laity engaged in Catholic Institution related work.

We have Loud Fences around practically every Catholic owned building-Church, School, etc.
We are constantly in the Media.
Sometimes our Masses are drowned out by protests, esp on specific dates
The number one go to is ’ why are you a practicing Catholic, they are all Paedophiles’

So how is this handled and responded too? Don’t deny it. Ever. Nor try to defend the Church on this.

Firstly It happened. There are people hurting.

It is acknowledged. Yes it happened, yes it’s horrific. We do not deny it.
We certainly don’t defend it.

You can’t defend it. How can you defend the rape of a child? Why would you?

So we have strong leadership. Our Priests and Bishop discusses it, talks to us in newsletters , special announcements, homilies. They talk to the media. They inherited this mess too.

We have a set of protocols now, in hopes of never experiencing this again.
We have NO confessional boxes.
We have sites of reflection and healing.
Sites of remembrance.

So to answer your Q. Don’t deny it. Say yes, there was evil in the Church. Its been dealt with. That’s what we do.
Of course the shite will hit the fan again if a certain Cardinal is made to answer charges. Its far from over. The shite will hit the fan if he is found by police to have no charges to answer .

But the one thing to stress is

It has not, nor ever will, destroy our faith, or stop us going to Mass

Hi, Rose!

…aren’t you contradicting yourself?

…didn’t you state on a previous post that you have not return to Mass?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

See, it’s not a claim. It happened. People are hurting. Answer it honestly. By sweeping it away, you do the same thing the Church was accused of doing. Ignoring it, moving Priests like Risdale from Parish to Parish.

Hi, Rose!

…here’s what the guy said:

Ridsdale said he never told anyone about his sexual abuse of boys, even during confession, because the “overriding fear would have been losing the priesthood”.

Asked what he specifically didn’t confess he said: “The sexual offending against children.” (news.com.au/national/courts-law/vile-paedophile-gerald-ridsdale-will-give-evidence-at-royal-commission-today/news-story/63054c92d762e9c3d53629b8da59ccab

)
…we must separate what actually happened with what is projected… some years back there was that lunatic calling for the Pope to be arrested and made to answer for what Priests and Bishops have done or have refused to do… it is that mentality that we must no emulate.

…here’s a little snippet of what I am saying:

The Jehovah’s Witness church and its overarching body, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, came to the attention of the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Sexual Abuse with a 2015 case study hearing more than 1000 allegations of paedophilia had been made against the organisation over 60 years yet not one complaint was reported to police. (childabusedata.blogspot.com/2017/03/jehovahs-witnesses-abuse-sex-cult-child.html

)
I’m at a loss… I don’t know if this actually took place or not since I’ve not heard a single news comment on this… yet, since there was an investigation that collected this data, it is quite probable that it in deed happened; yet, since it was not about the Catholic Church not many have brought up the issue.

…it is not that evil has not happened; it is that we must face the fact that it has; yet, we must not embrace the hate “God,” “the Church,” and “everything Catholic” mentality that has been fomenting…

…just a few years ago a female teacher had sex with one of her students; the courts decided that she was not a risk to anyone and that what was done was not so bad; she was let go with a slap on the hand and a adamant: ‘don’t do it again.’ This lady went on to have sex with the young man almost immediately–eventually she had a child or two with the “victim.” Given the various sexual situations where public school teachers are involved, must the public school system be razed to the ground?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Rose!

…aren’t you contradicting yourself?

…didn’t you state on a previous post that you have not returned to Mass?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[steve_b]

Hello all,

I will be visiting my family at the end of June and will be seeing my brother. We were raised Catholic, but he is now an agnostic and anti-Catholicism. He always asks me how I can belong to an organization which has acted so unChristlike over the centuries. Whether it be, in his opinion, the forced conversions of the Jews, Native Americans and other indigenous groups, the selling of indulgences, the inquisition, and the physical abuse doled out by some nuns/clergy at schools. His main focus, however, is the child molestation that went on in, and was covered up by, the Church. My gut reaction is to say that I’m a Catholic in spite of some of the actions of the Church and not because of them. And because I believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, I need the stay a member of the Church because of that belief. I also feel that the Church has earned much of the ridicule heaped upon it in the wake of the sex abuse scandal, so I don’t think it’s right to always defend the Church.

I think of the Church as a hospital full of well folks as well as sick folks. Do we look at a hospital and say, oh that’s a terrible institution because everyone who goes there is sick in some way. If that was the case with your brother, just wait till your brother gets sick. It’s a good chance he’s sick already. How is he going to get better?
P:

*Am I sinning by holding these positions and by not defending the Church when my brother goes on one of his anti-Catholic tirades?
*

No*. If you are not prepared for an answer, it’s not a sin to be quiet.Just be ready the next time with some answers
P:

What might be a better way to handle these attacks?

Lisa

(links are operational)

When we say in the creed, that the Church is holy, how is that, when it is full of sinners?

It’s holy because of her founder. His promises we can depend on in spite of weak individuals in her. Unfortunately, with people who have lost their faith, no explanation will do for them.

Not even Jesus could convince His own disciples to believe Him in His teaching on the Eucharist. They said to Jesus face, this is too hard to listen to and they left Him never to follow Him again.
Jn 6:66, In Context ] Imaging saying no to God’s face.

That’s one of the most difficult passages in all scripture IMV, Jesus didn’t go after them. He let them go. Because as Jesus said He knew in advance, they didn’t believe. (they had no faith) . He gave them the teaching just the same though, so that in the end, they could not say they weren’t given a chance.

Show the following to your brother. Just say to him, I’m giving you this information. What you do with this is your business. But I need to show this to you. #22

**Once someone knows the truth, THEN, deliberately missing mass once, is a mortal sin for those reasons described, and the consequences described fall on that person if they die in that sin
**

 

[Roseeurekacross]

I can only hazard a guess that none of you who say we don’t need to own this as part of our Catholic History, and/or perhaps we should defend, deny, or even ignore the conversation of Child Sexual Abuse in the Catholic Church…

You who say this, don’t live in a Parish culturally identified as a Parish where this has happened within the past 30 years. Indeed one of the worst Parishes globally for child rape within the Church.

I guess you don’t walk through the gates and into Mass through a Loud Fence.

I guess you still take Confession in a Confessional.

I guess you aren’t familiar with the constant presence of the Media when this issue is in the spotlight.
I guess you don’t sit in a Church with 9 other Parishoners on a Sunday Mass, and your Bishop Emeritus, celebrating this Mass, over Easter , is discussing the impact this issue has had on Mass attendance.

I guess your ex Bishop ( now passed) isnt the public focus of fault in your Parish; prevented from a correct honorific burial due to public outcry. Why? Because that Bishop did not take action the public thought he should, not because he was ever guilty himself of raping children. Then try having an annual Mass said for him by your current Bishop!

I guess your clergy and Laity aren’t making plans for the expected response in the next few weeks over whether Cardinal Pell, has a case to answer.

Just a heads up , Catholics. If Cardinal Pell is found to have a case to answer, or if he is not, it’s going to create a huge media circus, another backlash against the Church. And because Cardinal Pell is third in position at the Vatican, being a finance head,

This coming backlash will be huge. It wont just hit my little Parish, Diocese, where he was once a priest, and a room mate of a notorious Ex Priest paedophile.

Wait and watch. Then tell me we shouldn’t own that this happened as the Body of the Catholic Church. Tell me then how we should ignore / deny/ defend this discourse.

We need to own this. We need to say Yes this happened!
And we need to say this evil will never have permission to disrupt the Church again.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Hi, Rose!

…here’s what the guy said:

…we must separate what actually happened with what is projected… some years back there was that lunatic calling for the Pope to be arrested and made to answer for what Priests and Bishops have done or have refused to do… it is that mentality that we must no emulate.

…here’s a little snippet of what I am saying:

I’m at a loss… I don’t know if this actually took place or not since I’ve not heard a single news comment on this… yet, since there was an investigation that collected this data, it is quite probable that it in deed happened; yet, since it was not about the Catholic Church not many have brought up the issue.

…it is not that evil has not happened; it is that we must face the fact that it has; yet, we must not embrace the hate “God,” “the Church,” and “everything Catholic” mentality that has been fomenting…

…just a few years ago a female teacher had sex with one of her students; the courts decided that she was not a risk to anyone and that what was done was not so bad; she was let go with a slap on the hand and a adamant: ‘don’t do it again.’ This lady went on to have sex with the young man almost immediately–eventually she had a child or two with the “victim.” Given the various sexual situations where public school teachers are involved, must the public school system be razed to the ground?

Maran atha!

Angel

You want to talk to people who had Risdale as their Parish Priest. There are plenty of them in my Parish/ Diocese. He is even referred to as that Priest who would drive to home visits to hear confession. But then guess what, we don’t have Confessionals because of him. He is the most notorious paedophile priest, and he celebrated Mass in every Church I attend Mass. I sit with his victims/ victims families.

I feel I have the right to have a say about this issue,

And my response here is the direct result of the Leadership of my Bishop, and Clergy. They have the inenviable task of salvaging our Church from this mess.

We own it, we discuss it, we acknowledge it. We sit in the pub discussing it loudly in a secular setting

We ask ourselves why satan wanted so desperately to destroy our Parish and Diocese that he would set evil operating in my Cathedral!

But Jesus won out, satan lost. We are building a strong faith into the future, here.

I am here to tell you people this happened. I know it happened, I watch fractured families. I watch survivors struggling, I watch and listen to the advice of my Bishop.

 

[Rau]

…We need to say Yes this happened!
And we need to say this evil will never have permission to disrupt the Church again.

If anyone on the thread has rejected this, could you name them? If no one has said this, and all have concurred, why do you repeat yourself over and over?

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Hi, Rose!

…aren’t you contradicting yourself?

…didn’t you state on a previous post that you have not return to Mass?

Maran atha!

Angel

That’s Rosebud. She hasn’t returned to Mass because of the Truam issue.

I came back to the Church last year, in the Jubilee Year of Mercy. Walking right through the same doors Risdale had, a few years before.

I pray, for Rosebud, who lives in Ireland ( I am in Australia), that she will find the goods she needs to start attending Mass again. Her Priests aren’t responsible for Truam, but must own it as happening in the Church- if any healing is to occur.

Owning it is like saying for eg, as a nation , we had dark days of Slavery, genocide, holocaust, stolen generations.

 

[steve_b]

I can only hazard a guess that none of you who say we don’t need to own this as part of our Catholic History, and/or perhaps we should defend, deny, or even ignore the conversation of Child Sexual Abuse in the Catholic Church…

You who say this, don’t live in a Parish culturally identified as a Parish where this has happened within the past 30 years. Indeed one of the worst Parishes globally for child rape within the Church.

I guess you don’t walk through the gates and into Mass through a Loud Fence.

I guess you still take Confession in a Confessional.

I guess you aren’t familiar with the constant presence of the Media when this issue is in the spotlight.
I guess you don’t sit in a Church with 9 other Parishoners on a Sunday Mass, and your Bishop Emeritus, celebrating this Mass, over Easter , is discussing the impact this issue has had on Mass attendance.

I guess your ex Bishop ( now passed) isnt the public focus of fault in your Parish; prevented from a correct honorific burial due to public outcry. Why? Because that Bishop did not take action the public thought he should, not because he was ever guilty himself of raping children. Then try having an annual Mass said for him by your current Bishop!

I guess your clergy and Laity aren’t making plans for the expected response in the next few weeks over whether Cardinal Pell, has a case to answer.

Just a heads up , Catholics. If Cardinal Pell is found to have a case to answer, or if he is not, it’s going to create a huge media circus, another backlash against the Church. And because Cardinal Pell is third in position at the Vatican, being a finance head,

This coming backlash will be huge. It wont just hit my little Parish, Diocese, where he was once a priest, and a room mate of a notorious Ex Priest paedophile.

Wait and watch. Then tell me we shouldn’t own that this happened as the Body of the Catholic Church. Tell me then how we should ignore / deny/ defend this discourse.

We need to own this. We need to say Yes this happened!
And we need to say this evil will never have permission to disrupt the Church again.

I’ve posted this link numerous times on these forums.

I watched Fr Joseph Mary Wolf one morning on TV when he told this story in his homily at an EWTN mass.
youtube.com/watch?v=FeQNdXu-Uvc
note the part when Fr Jose, visits hell, and who in particular, he saw there, and why*** they*** were there,

Priests and bishops, Fr Jose, didn’t expect to see. Why were they there? Bad teaching, bad example, i.e. sin. In extension, that means in their position, they hurt people’s faith in this life.

Rose, I would just say this,

• Not to diminish anything or the gravity you mention, but the number of cleric offenders you speak of in the CC is very small in number. Also don’t let the sins of a few cause you to lose sight of the good which far and away is greater.
• unfortunately Satan never sleeps. We can’t let our guard down

 

[reader124]

OP I am in a Parish, a Diocese , that is infamous for past sexual abuse of children by Priests, Brothers, Nuns ( yes Nuns) and Laity engaged in Catholic Institution related work.

We have Loud Fences around practically every Catholic owned building-Church, School, etc.
We are constantly in the Media.
Sometimes our Masses are drowned out by protests, esp on specific dates
The number one go to is ’ why are you a practicing Catholic, they are all Paedophiles’

So how is this handled and responded too? Don’t deny it. Ever. Nor try to defend the Church on this.

Firstly It happened. There are people hurting.

It is acknowledged. Yes it happened, yes it’s horrific. We do not deny it.
We certainly don’t defend it.

You can’t defend it. How can you defend the rape of a child? Why would you?

So we have strong leadership. Our Priests and Bishop discusses it, talks to us in newsletters , special announcements, homilies. They talk to the media. They inherited this mess too.

We have a set of protocols now, in hopes of never experiencing this again.
We have NO confessional boxes.
We have sites of reflection and healing.
Sites of remembrance.

So to answer your Q. Don’t deny it. Say yes, there was evil in the Church. Its been dealt with. That’s what we do.
Of course the shite will hit the fan again if a certain Cardinal is made to answer charges. Its far from over. The shite will hit the fan if he is found by police to have no charges to answer .

But the one thing to stress is

It has not, nor ever will, destroy our faith, or stop us going to Mass

What was the point of the boxes in the first place? Couldn’t the people just wait in line far enough back from the priest to be out of earshot of the current confession?

 

[jcrichton]

I can only hazard a guess that none of you who say we don’t need to own this as part of our Catholic History, and/or perhaps we should defend, deny, or even ignore the conversation of Child Sexual Abuse in the Catholic Church…

You who say this, don’t live in a Parish culturally identified as a Parish where this has happened within the past 30 years. Indeed one of the worst Parishes globally for child rape within the Church.

I guess you don’t walk through the gates and into Mass through a Loud Fence.

I guess you still take Confession in a Confessional.

I guess you aren’t familiar with the constant presence of the Media when this issue is in the spotlight.
I guess you don’t sit in a Church with 9 other Parishoners on a Sunday Mass, and your Bishop Emeritus, celebrating this Mass, over Easter , is discussing the impact this issue has had on Mass attendance.

I guess your ex Bishop ( now passed) isnt the public focus of fault in your Parish; prevented from a correct honorific burial due to public outcry. Why? Because that Bishop did not take action the public thought he should, not because he was ever guilty himself of raping children. Then try having an annual Mass said for him by your current Bishop!

I guess your clergy and Laity aren’t making plans for the expected response in the next few weeks over whether Cardinal Pell, has a case to answer.

Just a heads up , Catholics. If Cardinal Pell is found to have a case to answer, or if he is not, it’s going to create a huge media circus, another backlash against the Church. And because Cardinal Pell is third in position at the Vatican, being a finance head,

This coming backlash will be huge. It wont just hit my little Parish, Diocese, where he was once a priest, and a room mate of a notorious Ex Priest paedophile.

Wait and watch. Then tell me we shouldn’t own that this happened as the Body of the Catholic Church. Tell me then how we should ignore / deny/ defend this discourse.

We need to own this. We need to say Yes this happened!
And we need to say this evil will never have permission to disrupt the Church again.

Hi, Rose!

…the problem, as I’ve state on other posts, is vocabulary… while you may be innocently espousing “own” to acceptance of the responsibility due, others are actually seeking to eradicate, raze, the Church out of existence for the same error that others are treated with leniency and some even a “pass.”

While I concur with you that any error committed by the clergy and those in authority in the Church (as well as all of her members) should be brought to the foreground and strongly corrected (which includes the removal from the Priesthood and expose to criminal proceedings), the fact remains that our Faith should not be razed from existence and Catholics should not war against the Church in an effort to dismantle the Body of Christ.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

You want to talk to people who had Risdale as their Parish Priest. There are plenty of them in my Parish/ Diocese. He is even referred to as that Priest who would drive to home visits to hear confession. But then guess what, we don’t have Confessionals because of him. He is the most notorious paedophile priest, and he celebrated Mass in every Church I attend Mass. I sit with his victims/ victims families.

I feel I have the right to have a say about this issue,

And my response here is the direct result of the Leadership of my Bishop, and Clergy. They have the inenviable task of salvaging our Church from this mess.

We own it, we discuss it, we acknowledge it. We sit in the pub discussing it loudly in a secular setting ������������

We ask ourselves why satan wanted so desperately to destroy our Parish and Diocese that he would set evil operating in my Cathedral!

But Jesus won out, satan lost. We are building a strong faith into the future, here.

I am here to tell you people this happened. I know it happened, I watch fractured families. I watch survivors struggling, I watch and listen to the advice of my Bishop.

Hi, Rose!

Excellent!

This is exactly what must be done… please, don’t misunderstand me; I do not mean that we (Catholics) should pretend that everything is fine and dandy or that there’s no sin in the world or that those who are purported to be our Spiritual anchors and leaders do not fail.

What you’ve shared on this post is an excellent manner of addressing all issues involving the local parishes and the global Church.

I commend you for sharing and for being actively involved in the healing of the Body!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

That’s Rosebud. She hasn’t returned to Mass because of the Truam issue.

I came back to the Church last year, in the Jubilee Year of Mercy. Walking right through the same doors Risdale had, a few years before.

I pray, for Rosebud, who lives in Ireland ( I am in Australia), that she will find the goods she needs to start attending Mass again. Her Priests aren’t responsible for Truam, but must own it as happening in the Church- if any healing is to occur.

Owning it is like saying for eg, as a nation , we had dark days of Slavery, genocide, holocaust, stolen generations.

Hi, Rose!

…sorry for the oversight! …this cup’s on me! :blushing:

…as I explained on my previous post, here (US) too many times “owning up” is equated to ‘see, they must be eradicated.’ Sadly, that is the excuse many “Catholics” needed to leave the Church and to begin an active assailment of her.

My concern is that Catholics not fall prey to such anti-Catholic and anti-God mentality where man uses his thirst for self-rule (as no authority over him) as a “shield” of umbrage (ie: ‘the seeming concern for those “millions” that the “bad” God of the Old Testament Commanded to be killed’)

Maran atha!

Angel