Defending the Marital Act to an Atheist

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My sister who claims she is an atheist, challenged me with this question: Do we as Catholics believe that sex outside of marriage is wrong? I said yes. She said, Well I’m not Catholic, but anyone, Catholic or not, who has sex, is not married nor wants to get married or have children is wrong? I again said yes. She said: Well it sure is convienent that you fit all categories. Namely, I am, Catholic, married and want to have children. I guess I answered her correctly, but is there anything else I can say to her reguarding this matter?
 
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jennypekny:
My sister who claims she is an atheist, challenged me with this question: Do we as Catholics believe that sex outside of marriage is wrong? I said yes. She said, Well I’m not Catholic, but anyone, Catholic or not, who has sex, is not married nor wants to get married or have children is wrong? I again said yes. She said: Well it sure is convienent that you fit all categories. Namely, I am, Catholic, married and want to have children. I guess I answered her correctly, but is there anything else I can say to her reguarding this matter?
OK, well maybe sex outside of marriage is not WRONG, but

It sure is SINFUL…

So, I suppose the subjectiveness of right and wrong really comes to is it sinful or not? and for the atheist (or pseudo-Agnostic as I call them), they eliminate the culpability by association.

Nevertheless, it is still a grave sin
 
Considering all the possible unpleasant things that could happen, such as STDs, emotional downfalls of promiscous sex or children without commited parents. In marriage I think about all that is right, and all the things I don’t worry about that can occur with sex outside of marriage.
 
It’s funny though, its as if she believes that you came up with the criteria on how to live a moral life by observing your very own. Maybe you should point out to her that even if you weren’t living up to the standard it would still be the standard.
 
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sullivansoul:
It’s funny though, its as if she believes that you came up with the criteria on how to live a moral life by observing your very own. Maybe you should point out to her that even if you weren’t living up to the standard it would still be the standard.
Thank you for your response. I really think that she was just trying to get me upset. However, I never really thought of it in that way. Thanks, that makes me feel better. 🙂
 
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jennypekny:
She said: Well it sure is convienent that you fit all categories.
Response: No, not convenient. It is a conscious decision, and one that requires more discipline than playing it fast and loose with sex.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
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jennypekny:
I really think that she was just trying to get me upset.
Really. What did she expect you to say?

So she says your situation is convenient because you fit all the categories, therefore it is OK for YOU? Let’s talk about this “convenient” phrase. Atheism is obviously “convenient” to her because anything goes. She has quite a nerve to tell you that your beliefs are “convenient.”

Also, I’m curious what it is she’s accusing you of being. Is it a hypocrite? Is there an atheist moral doctrine out there that says there is something wrong with being a hypocrite? Obviously she wants to borrow Christian values when it suits her, but leave them when it does not.

Actually, if she thinks hypocracy is wrong, maybe she isn’t a true atheist, or maybe she does have an ethical base. I wonder why she wanted to know what Catholics believe? She could be looking for something greater than what she knows. Maybe if you can engage her in honest discussions about her feelings you may find she is jealous of your situation and maybe even wants to become Catholic but is afraid to admit it. Maybe with God’s help you can sponsor this person in RCIA!

Alan
 
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AlanFromWichita:
Actually, if she thinks hypocracy is wrong, maybe she isn’t a true atheist, or maybe she does have an ethical base.
Many atheists have ethics. You don’t need to believe in God in order to believe that human beings have acceptable and unacceptable standards of behaviour.

Jenn
  • a former ethical atheist
  • now Catholic, but still ethical 😉
 
no, a hypocrite is exactly what jenny is NOT. no matter whose standards of ethics we’re using, you’re not a hypocrite if you practice what you believe, you’re a hypocrite if you DON’T.

jenny is being accused of something unusual - being sincere. 🙂 i’ve heard it ridiculed before, but i’ve never heard it used as a ‘logical’ argument against the moral stance. interesting.

i’d like to ask xenon what you mean by something not being wrong even though it’s sinful. please explain your dichotomy, as i’m not seeing it.

jenny - is this someone you’ll see often? do you see your sister often enough to continue the dialog in a meaningful way? i ask, since my brother lives in new york and my parents live in california, so i don’t see any of my family hardly ever.
 
[QUOTEjenny - is this someone you’ll see often? do you see your sister often enough to continue the dialog in a meaningful way? i ask, since my brother lives in new york and my parents live in california, so i don’t see any of my family hardly ever.
[/QUOTE]
Yes I do see her often.

We went on a “weekend getaway” (her idea). So she could see where I stood on things. I think she thought I was claiming to be Catholic, but maybe didn’t support all of the Catholic teachings. Boy was she wrong! I stood my ground which was not easy as she is a very fast talker and seems to have facts on everything! I firmly believe that we were poorly catechised (sp?) growing up and I am really trying hard to learn my faith. I find that these forums have helped tremendously as well as the Catechism of the Catholic Church and many other books my husband and I have purchased.
 
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AlanFromWichita:
Really. What did she expect you to say?

So she says your situation is convenient because you fit all the categories, therefore it is OK for YOU? Let’s talk about this “convenient” phrase. Atheism is obviously “convenient” to her because anything goes. She has quite a nerve to tell you that your beliefs are “convenient.”

Also, I’m curious what it is she’s accusing you of being. Is it a hypocrite? Is there an atheist moral doctrine out there that says there is something wrong with being a hypocrite? Obviously she wants to borrow Christian values when it suits her, but leave them when it does not.

Actually, if she thinks hypocracy is wrong, maybe she isn’t a true atheist, or maybe she does have an ethical base. I wonder why she wanted to know what Catholics believe? She could be looking for something greater than what she knows. Maybe if you can engage her in honest discussions about her feelings you may find she is jealous of your situation and maybe even wants to become Catholic but is afraid to admit it. Maybe with God’s help you can sponsor this person in RCIA!

Alan
My sister is accusing me of believing in a faith that I do not have complete knowledge of, she thinks that’s foolish. I am not an expert and I don’t have all the answers. She feels like she has all the answers reguarding her atheism, but I don’t know all the facts about the Catholic faith. As I said before, I continue to work on that. I do know many things about the Church. I’m just not as good at communicating. I am very non confrontational. I was able to keep my cool this weekend and not get worked up. Something that my sister cannot claim.

She did go to Mass with me on Sunday, but squirmed in her seat and made faces all during the homily. We were blessed to hear a homily that was very direct about what the Catholic Church believes.
 
You could say you believe your faith because it is true, not because it is convenient. You might mention that as she is a relativist, she is rigid.

This is copied from EWTN from a Q&A faith forum:

The first three (or is it four?) chapters of C.S. Lewis’s Mere Christianity convinced many of my ethics students that relativism is false. There are some very good and readable arguments there, and they do work. I highly recommend it.

C.S. Lewis’s most powerful argument is this. One can only have a discussion of morality if both people are talking of the same thing. If each is talking of something else (e.g., I am talking of morality-for-me and you are talking of morality-for-you), then there is no possibility of disagreement and hence of discussion. Indeed, when we look at people having moral discussions, we find that they do agree on basic principles. For instance, one may say to another: “Give me a bit of your apple because I gave you a bit of mine yesterday.” The other is not likely to respond: “So what that you gave me a bit of yours?” Both people accept a duty of gratitude, but one may try to weasel out of it by giving some exception (e.g., “Yours wasn’t very tasty”).

Another argument I’ve found very powerful is this. If morality is just a matter of your feelings, as the relativist generally claims, then your moral feelings are always, by definition, right for you. What you feel is right is right for you on the relativist’s view. But this means that you are infallible about morality (for you). Since you are always by definition right about morality (for you), you never have any reason to change your moral views. Therefore, the consistent relativist has no reason to ever change his views–because he is always already right (for himself)–and so consistent relativism leads to rigidity and intolerance. This conclusion I think takes my students by surprise, and some of them stop being relativists when they get to it.

Moral progress and positive changes in moral beliefs require that some moral beliefs be objectively better than others. If no moral beliefs are objectively better than others, then we had no reason to abolish slavery. Slavery was right for us, and we had no reason to change it. The Nazis had no reason to stop being Nazis. All this is absurd, and so it must be that some moral beliefs are objectively better than others.

Few relativists have really looked into the consequences of their relativism. They don’t realize that if you are a relativist, you can’t criticize the Nazis, since what the Nazis did was right for the Nazis according to the relativist. They don’t realize that they themselves think some moral truths are absolute, such as the moral truth that “one should not torture little children just to hear them cry”. I think what is important to emphasize to the relativist, however, is that the moral absolutist is open to changing his mind about some moral issues. He is open to changing his mind precisely because, unlike the relativist, he thinks there is an objective truth, and so if he becomes convinced that his ideas do not match up with objective truth, he will change them. (Since the relativist’s ideas always match up with his own “subjective truth”, he never has reason to change them.) Of course, there are some things we already know with certainty (e.g., every sane person knows it is absolutely wrong to torture little children just to hear them cry, and almost everyone knows many other things, and our Catholic faith teaches us yet many more).
 
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