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minkymurph
Guest
'There is no evidence God (or gods) exist.
Define and discuss ‘evidence.’
Define and discuss ‘evidence.’
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Bradski
Guest
Yes there is. Except for some (yourself included), it is not convincing.
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minkymurph
Guest
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minkymurph
Guest
Perhaps I should spell things out a bit more.
'There is no evidence God (or gods) exist.
In the context of this statement define ‘evidence’ and discuss and critically evaluate application of evidence in this sense.
'There is no evidence God (or gods) exist.
In the context of this statement define ‘evidence’ and discuss and critically evaluate application of evidence in this sense.
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Mary_Estelle
Guest
There is NO evidence that He does not exist. Prove that there is no God-Creator-Supreme Master. There is lots of evidence that is scientific that says the universe is not just a random collection of atoms smacking about, but some call
intelligent design. BTW, how can you prove that YOU exist? Are you real or are you just a water bag of chemicals and minerals with electrical impulses. Prove you do or do not exist. LOL!
intelligent design. BTW, how can you prove that YOU exist? Are you real or are you just a water bag of chemicals and minerals with electrical impulses. Prove you do or do not exist. LOL!
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minkymurph
Guest
Well someone is communicating with you but I could be an evil robot.There is NO evidence that He does not exist. Prove that there is no God-Creator-Supreme Master. There is lots of evidence that is scientific that says the universe is not just a random collection of atoms smacking about, but some call
intelligent design. BTW, how can you prove that YOU exist? Are you real or are you just a water bag of chemicals and minerals with electrical impulses. Prove you do or do not exist. LOL!
Seriously, what I am looking for is a discussion on what ‘evidence’ actually is and it’s application.
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St_Francis
Guest
Generally when an atheist says this, he means there is no *material *evidence of a Supreme Creator. Anthony Flew proposed that order in the universe is not evidence for God if there was no substantiating material eviidence. Link here.
The problem is that material evidence is not the only kind of evidence there is. Flew eventually changed his mind about atheism, saying, “My one and only piece of relevant evidence [for an Aristotelian God] is the apparent impossibility of providing a naturalistic theory of the origin from DNA of the first reproducing species… [In fact] the only reason which I have for beginning to think of believing in a First Cause god is the impossibility of providing a naturalistic account of the origin of the first reproducing organisms.”
The problem is that material evidence is not the only kind of evidence there is. Flew eventually changed his mind about atheism, saying, “My one and only piece of relevant evidence [for an Aristotelian God] is the apparent impossibility of providing a naturalistic theory of the origin from DNA of the first reproducing species… [In fact] the only reason which I have for beginning to think of believing in a First Cause god is the impossibility of providing a naturalistic account of the origin of the first reproducing organisms.”
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Beryllos
Guest
Isn’t that the God of the Gaps? When science advances to the point that it explains the natural origin of living matter, will he have no further need of faith?
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minkymurph
Guest
OK so we’ve got ‘material’ as evidence.
If you were looking for ‘material’ evidence God exists - what kind of things would you look for?
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minkymurph
Guest
Yep - the testimony of an eye witness is considered evidence by a court.
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St_Francis
Guest
As a Catholic, I believe that God created the world; therefore, no natural explanation for the rise of DNA will be found.
As a rational human being, I notice that things left on their own revert to chaos, yet scientists expect me to believe that order maintains itself in the universe. IOW, there is too much effect for the amount of cause, which is what Flew noticed.
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friardchips
Guest
No God-origin, no intellect to ask such a question. The very fact you can question your existence means that your biology is engineered in such a way that you are able to. Otherwise, you wouldn’t be human. Animals don’t question their existence, for example, and neither do trees. The inability of non-human created life to advance intellectually is formed by their natural incapability to be able do so, while their biology is perfectly conformed to their natural environment i.e:-meaning is found in the facts…
And so, facts prove that meaning exists, which in turn means there must be an awareness of meaning in life, for facts to be recognised, and this recognition provides substance for creatures that have higher reasoning faculties, which can be the only reason, for the intellect to exist at all. Conclusively, there has to be a reason for humans to be able to find meaning, with the use of their reasoning capabilities, in a world of facts, where all things have a reason for existing in the first place. And because we are able to reason that there are facts, means that facts existed first, before we reasoned them, put their by an intelligent force capable of designing the intellect for humankind to consider such food for thought.
Leading us onto the subject of objectivity.
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AveOTheotokos
Guest
Evidence is something which shows that something else exists or is true.
Peter Kreeft has some rather compelling evidence here:
Twenty Arguments For The Existence Of God
Some of my favorites are The Argument from Efficient Causality and The Argument from Contingency.
Bishop Barron explains The Argument from Contingency here:
youtu.be/W_Yjue8MXAI
Peter Kreeft has some rather compelling evidence here:
Twenty Arguments For The Existence Of God
Some of my favorites are The Argument from Efficient Causality and The Argument from Contingency.
Bishop Barron explains The Argument from Contingency here:
youtu.be/W_Yjue8MXAI
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Lion_IRC
Guest
If I’m an atheist counter-apologist I will tell believers “that’s not evidence” (EXCLAMATION MARK!!!)
Then, if I have a direct personal, Road To Damascus religious experience of God, I will go running to all my atheist buddies wanting to tell them they are mistaken and that God is very real. And guess what I will hear back in reply?
…“that’s not evidence”
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Bradski
Guest
You included ‘gods’.
So you know what evidence would be required for God. That which would convince you of any other god.
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minkymurph
Guest
Equally
How can you deduce I know what evidence would be required for God on the ground I included ‘gods?’
How can you know what evidence if any would convince me personally of the existence of any other god?
Let’s say for the sake of argument you are right - that I know what evidence would be required for God. What purpose does telling I know in response to a question I posed serve?
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Lion_IRC
Guest
There’s plenty of evidence for the god Mammon.
It is even mentioned in the bible.
When God says you shall not worship other gods He is affirming that gods exist in many forms. Idols exist and they are gods.
Folks like Bradski define words such as God, god and evidence to suit their own argument.
That’s fair enough. They accuse folks like me of doing the same thing.
It is even mentioned in the bible.
When God says you shall not worship other gods He is affirming that gods exist in many forms. Idols exist and they are gods.
Folks like Bradski define words such as God, god and evidence to suit their own argument.
That’s fair enough. They accuse folks like me of doing the same thing.
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Bradski
Guest
If the intention is to find out what evidence would be acceptable for an atheist to believe in God, then you simply have to consider what evidence would be acceptable to you to believe in, for example, Vishnu.Equally
How can you deduce I know what evidence would be required for God on the ground I included ‘gods?’
How can you know what evidence if any would convince me personally of the existence of any other god?
Let’s say for the sake of argument you are right - that I know what evidence would be required for God. What purpose does telling I know in response to a question I posed serve?
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De_Maria
Guest
Ok. But what are you asking.
- Are you asking what an atheist means by “evidence”?
What does the atheist mean by evidence?
When I was an atheist, I meant that I had no direct experience, physical, visual or aural, of the existence of a divine being. Evidence, for me as an atheist, and in the context of the first statement, means direct contact with God. Either by sight, sound or touch.
- Or do you mean, what does a believer mean by evidence?
b. Many believers also have direct experience of the existence of God as they have either seen, felt or heard what they believe to be God.
c. Other believers have used logical arguments and deductions to determine that the universe and everything in it are evidence that God must exist because of the overwhelming complexity of creation.
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minkymurph
Guest
This is not the intention. My intention is to establish what atheist and theist alike consider constitutes evidence, and how they respectively utilize and apply that evidence.
In my personal view atheists cannot be persuaded there a God or gods by any means on the ground they hold an entrenched position. Entrenched positions cannot be overturned by any means. That said, in my view some of the arguments they present on other issues are tenuous and readily countered - that is not unique to atheists.
My intentions and personal opinions often run contrary to what past posters on CAF have presumed them to be, and arguments counter arguments they have presumed I would make in advance arguments and counter arguments I couldn’t in wildest imagination have formulated.
On an end note I happen to enjoy reading myths and legends and about other religions and cultures past and present. It is not difficult to see how people arrived at the conclusions they did. For example many have heard the legend of the Irish giant Finn McCool. There is evidence that people in Ireland carried a ‘giant gene’ particularly in Ulster. Thus, there is some truth in the legend and I personally believe there is an element of truth in all myths and legends.
greaterancestors.com/1194-2/
theguardian.com/science/2011/dec/22/irish-giant-skeleton-museum-display
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