Democrats, popular opinion, and abortion rights

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Reformed_Rob

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Hello,

In this weeks issue of “The Economist” magazine (p.40), there is an interesting article about the potential pro-abortion benefits that could result if Democrats “disowned” so to speak the infamous Roe v. Waderuling. That is, if Democrats stopped harping about how abortion is a fundamental right of privacy, or sought to have it overturned alltogether.

The essence of the article is this, I think it could be interesting to discuss, and maybe, who knows, pro-abortion Democrats could be sneaky and take this approach to advancing abortion rights in USA someday!!

Most rich countries other than the U.S. have solved the abortion problem by popular/legislative vote on the issue. There were debates, etc, and eventually a triumph of abortion rights. The people realized they had spoken, and the majority won out. No examples are given, anyways…

The Republicans have generally had the better of the abortion wars, (a fact many Democrats will admit), because they argue that it was ramrodded by the judicial system, and done so on shaky grounds. Shaky grounds such as a “penumbras” that are essential to give life to the Bill of Rights (Justice William Douglas, *Griswold v. Connecticus, *1965). Remember back when artificial birth control was a big issue? I don’t but the Griswold case has a lot to do with that. Basic ruling was that the Constitution has “penumbras” that flow naturally from it to protect privacy of citizens. And marriage has private aspects.

The Economist article argues that, based upon Gallup polls since mid 1970’s, about. 80% of Americans want abortion to be legal, either in all cases (21-31%) or in some circumstances (51-61%). Therefore, according to the article, the pro-abortion D’s should turn the tables on the conservative R’s, and, since they’ve got public opinion on their side already, put the R’s in an akward situation.

Democrats stick by Roe v Wade simply because it’s a flag marking victory for liberal progress, and why should they give up ground? Well, perhaps to call the R’s bluff! Relying on judges to advance the liberal agenda allowed conservatives to seize the mantle of populism. Roe has given R’s a free ride; they can claim to oppose abortion in the comfortable knowledge that it will never be banned. But imagine if Roe were overturned… How many R’s would vote for a ban on abortion that only 1 in 5 Americans support? The conservative coalition would be split asunder.

_________ Ah, Democracy after the Fall!! ____________

The parts in blue are more or less direct quotes from the Economist article.

Interesting, what do you think?
 
Penumbra at Dictionary.com


  1. *]A partial shadow, as in an eclipse, between regions of complete shadow and complete illumination. See Synonyms at shade.
    *]The grayish outer part of a sunspot.
    *]**An area in which something exists to a lesser or uncertain degree: “The First Amendment has a penumbra where privacy is protected from governmental intrusion” (Joseph A. Califano, Jr.). **

    1 : an area within which distinction or resolution is difficult or uncertain <the public-private penumbra>
    2 : an extension of protection, reach, application, or consideration; especially : a body of rights held to be guaranteed by implication from other rights explicitly enumerated in the U.S. Constitution <the First Amendment has a penumbra where privacy is protected from governmental intrusion —Griswold v. Connecticut, 381 U.S. 479 (1965)>
 
Reformed Rob:
The Economist article argues that, based upon Gallup polls since mid 1970’s, about. 80% of Americans want abortion to be legal, either in all cases (21-31%) or in some circumstances (51-61%). Therefore, according to the article, the pro-abortion D’s should turn the tables on the conservative R’s, and, since they’ve got public opinion on their side already, put the R’s in an akward situation.
I thought this was interesting. It sounds like only 21%-31% support the democrats position.
 
Reformed Rob:
Most rich countries other than the U.S. have solved the abortion problem by popular/legislative vote on the issue. There were debates, etc, and eventually a triumph of abortion rights. The people realized they had spoken, and the majority won out. No examples are given, anyways…
I beg to differ on this quote here… there was no “popular/legislative vote” The PEOPLE of the United States had NO say in Roe v Wade. They didn’t get a chance to vote.

It’s junk like this that gets printed and leads people to think “oh, if it was voted upon, the people spoke then.” I’m thankful that my generation (Gen X) and the two following generations are starting to speak up and speak the truth about abortion. Maybe we’ll see it abolished or at least used in very limited circumstances during our lifetime.
 
40.png
tamccrackine:
I beg to differ on this quote here… there was no “popular/legislative vote” The PEOPLE of the United States had NO say in Roe v Wade. They didn’t get a chance to vote.

It’s junk like this that gets printed and leads people to think “oh, if it was voted upon, the people spoke then.” I’m thankful that my generation (Gen X) and the two following generations are starting to speak up and speak the truth about abortion. Maybe we’ll see it abolished or at least used in very limited circumstances during our lifetime.
No, Tamcrackine, I’m sorry, but you completely misunderstood!!

The article is saying that IN OTHER COUNTRIES (ie. not the U.S.) there have been votes on the issue by elected officials. I wish they would have given examples, but there were none given. Maybe somebody here can think of some.

The article is NOT saying what you accuse it of saying. Read my post again, at least that very paragraph that you quoted, and you should see that.

I’m not picking on you, by the way, I’m just defending the truth. I understand how you could have misunderstood.

The truth is that the article was saying that the abortion issue was decided in the courts, which was completely outside of any legislative body’s vote on the issue. The article is saying that, were it to be decided by legislative vote, women’s right to abortion would likely receive even stronger “pro-choice” freedom than under Roe v. Wade.
 
Abortion polls can be misleading. While polls may show that a majority of Americans want abortion to be legal in some circumstances; polls also show that a majority of Americans would limit the permissibility of abortion to far fewer circumstances than is currently the case.

Given the facts of Roe and Casey, American jurisprudence essentially results in abortion on demand. It is much less restrictive of abortion than other countries which have legalized abortion (with limits) through the legislative route.

In fact, if one breaks down poll responses by actual circumstances under which respondents would allow abortion (i.e. to save the life of the mother, for mother’s health reasons, rape, incest, sex determination, convenience, etc), it turns out that most Americans would oppose most abortions that are actually being performed.

While the Economist article may have a superficial attractiveness to pro-choice proponents, I suspect that most of them realize that if abortion policy were to be decided legislatively rather than judicially, they would probably end up with a much more restrictive policy. That’s why they are fighting so hard to retain current abortion policy through the Supreme Court.
 
40.png
tamccrackine:
I beg to differ on this quote here… there was no “popular/legislative vote” The PEOPLE of the United States had NO say in Roe v Wade. They didn’t get a chance to vote.

It’s junk like this that gets printed and leads people to think “oh, if it was voted upon, the people spoke then.” I’m thankful that my generation (Gen X) and the two following generations are starting to speak up and speak the truth about abortion. Maybe we’ll see it abolished or at least used in very limited circumstances during our lifetime.
The issue went to the Supreme Court because the Congress did not want to be on record as having voted one way or the other on this issue. This is a prime example of legislating from the bench. I may be wrong, but did not the issue have limitations on it, first trimester, when it first was discussed? And again, as I have said many times before on CAF, you can get whatever answer you prefer by the way the poll is worded and the selections listed.
 
Reformed Rob:
No, Tamcrackine, I’m sorry, but you completely misunderstood!!

The article is saying that IN OTHER COUNTRIES (ie. not the U.S.) there have been votes on the issue by elected officials. I wish they would have given examples, but there were none given. Maybe somebody here can think of some.

The article is NOT saying what you accuse it of saying. Read my post again, at least that very paragraph that you quoted, and you should see that.

I’m not picking on you, by the way, I’m just defending the truth. I understand how you could have misunderstood.

The truth is that the article was saying that the abortion issue was decided in the courts, which was completely outside of any legislative body’s vote on the issue. The article is saying that, were it to be decided by legislative vote, women’s right to abortion would likely receive even stronger “pro-choice” freedom than under Roe v. Wade.
You’re very correct… thank you. 🙂 I took a gander and I realized that I did in fact misunderstand and jumped in on that one paragraph, thinking the article was talking about the US. I’m sorry. 🙂
 
mary bobo:
This is a prime example of legislating from the bench. I may be wrong, but did not the issue have limitations on it, first trimester, when it first was discussed?
The trimester framework of Roe is pretty much dead. The press has continued to present the decision as if abortion were fully legal only in the first trimester, but it is in fact legal throughout pregnancy, even up to and during the birth process. (Courts have prevented laws against partial birth abortion from going into effect.)

The Roe court said that abortion could not be limited at all in the first trimester. It could be limited in the 2nd and 3rd trimester with limitations pertaining to the life and health of the mother.

But the companion ruling, Doe v Bolton, defined “health” as used in these rulings as anything which could affect the woman, physically or psychologically, including her family situation, econimic situation, and other matters. In effect, the woman requires an abortion for “health” reasons whenever the abortionist says she does. The end result is pretty much abortion on demand.
 
40.png
JimG:
The trimester framework of Roe is pretty much dead. The press has continued to present the decision as if abortion were fully legal only in the first trimester, but it is in fact legal throughout pregnancy, even up to and during the birth process. (Courts have prevented laws against partial birth abortion from going into effect.)

The Roe court said that abortion could not be limited at all in the first trimester. It could be limited in the 2nd and 3rd trimester with limitations pertaining to the life and health of the mother.

But the companion ruling, Doe v Bolton, defined “health” as used in these rulings as anything which could affect the woman, physically or psychologically, including her family situation, econimic situation, and other matters. In effect, the woman requires an abortion for “health” reasons whenever the abortionist says she does. The end result is pretty much abortion on demand.
Thanks for the explanation.
 
Hey, that’s all very interesting. The abortion topic is not something I’m up on so well, but I know I better have at least a basic knowledge of it soon. Thanks for the discussion…
 
For a pretty comprehensive coverage of life issues, try the American Life League website. all.org/ For extensive coverage of abortion, for example, click on “Issues” on the left hand menu, which will take you to a drop-down menu including “abortion.”
 
It may well be true that Democrats would profit politically if Roe was overturned. During the upcoming judiciary committee hearings on the confirmation of Judge Alito to the Supreme Court you can judge for yourself the likelihood of them letting that happen. You will be better able to understand the questioning if you understand the background of Roe and subsequent abortion cases. Here are two of the key issues on which Alito will be closely questioned.

Privacy - Roe declared that an abortion was a fundamental right. This was a right of privacy developed out of the Griswold decision which was the original source of the “emanations of the penumbra” comment. Since Roe claimed abortion was a privacy right, any attack on privacy is a simultaneous attack on abortion.

Stare decisis - Basically this means “let the decision stand”, that is, don’t overrule a precedent and reverse a previous decision. There have been several abortion cases since Roe, one of the most significant was Casey. In it, the court ruled that abortion was a liberty rather than a privacy right, that an abortion was not a fundamental right, and replaced the trimester system with a “viability” point. Effectively, Casey reversed the logic - but not the effect - of Roe claiming that stability and respect for the court required that it not be reversed. That is, even though Roe was wrongly decided it should not now be overturned … stare decisis.

Ender
 
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