Depersonalization and Dark Night of the Soul?

[TOP]

I found this very simple explanation of the “night of sense”. It rings so loud , it is deafening, esp. about prayer.
orednet.org/~jflory/night_of_sense.htm

 

[DBT]

Tim - You certainly found the key point about the night of sense: the change in the soul’s way of prayer. St. John of the Cross describes the inability to meditate as before and the strong desire to seek silence and solitude alone with God as the key signs of this night.

The soul is being called to recollection and contemplation but it doesn’t recognize this grace because the call is often very subtle (i.e. the still small voice). The lack of understanding as to what is happening leads the soul to airidity, dryness and sometimes interior torment. Nothing seems right and the soul feels it’s lost it’s way. The ways of the past (meditation) no longer bear fruit . . . but the way forward (contemplation) remains clouded in darkness. The biggest mistake souls make in this night is to resist the grace that is being given in an effort to “do” something with their prayer (i.e. return to meditation) when they should simply “be.”

If this is striking a chord with you, perhaps it is a good topic to discuss with your SD. He should be able to give you some simple advice and guidelines on how to act during this night that will bring an element of peace. Regarding the duration of this night: it’s different for everybody. In general, the saints teach, the more one cooperates with the purification God is giving the shorter the length of trial. And the intensity isn’t always constant - there are ebbs and flows and alternating periods of light and darkness.

Lisa Annette - I will certainly keep you in my prayers regarding your possible vocation as a Secular Carmelite Perhaps the San Antonio community you mention can point you in the right direction toward finding a SD. If not, there’s a very active OCDS community in Austin . . . in fact the President of our Province is based there. There’s also a group of friars in Dallas . . . maybe they do spiritual direction - or can lead you to someone who can.

Dave.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Mental illness (and depression is a mental illness) has its origins in the not strictly spiritual. It is an illness requiring treatment. The Dark Night is strictly spiritual and has spiritual origin. They are two separate entities and have nothing to do with each other although one does not of fixed necessity exclude the other. Hence the effect or results of the underlying cause differ as well as the actual underlying cause being totally different. Usually the priest (spiritual director) and the doctor recognize what belongs to their area of expertise and what doesnot…but this is not an infallible rule of thumb. That is, the doctor usually recognizes if it is time to call in the priest…and the priest can usually recognize if it is time to call in the doctor. “Priest” in my meaning can also mean a spiritual director.

Depersonalization is certainly a mental illness, although the term is used quite loosely sometimes but not implying the actual mental illness per se.

The Dark Night is the area of a spiritual director. Although St. John of The Cross gives certain signs that indicate The Dark Night that most directors do go by as a rule of thumb. Best always to refer matters to a spiritual director rather than ‘self-diagnose’. To enter into and travel The Dark Night of The Spirit does not necessarily need the person to know it, although it could perhaps be helpful.

Blessings…Peace and Joy…Barb

 

[blessedstar]

Mental illness (and depression is a mental illness) has its origins in the not strictly spiritual. It is an illness requiring treatment. The Dark Night is strictly spiritual and has spiritual origin. They are two separate entities and have nothing to do with each other although one does not of fixed necessity exclude the other. Hence the effect or results of the underlying cause differ as well as the actual underlying cause being totally different. Usually the priest (spiritual director) and the doctor recognize what belongs to their area of expertise and what doesnot…but this is not an infallible rule of thumb. That is, the doctor usually recognizes if it is time to call in the priest…and the priest can usually recognize if it is time to call in the doctor. “Priest” in my meaning can also mean a spiritual director.

Depersonalization is certainly a mental illness, although the term is used quite loosely sometimes but not implying the actual mental illness per se.

The Dark Night is the area of a spiritual director. Although St. John of The Cross gives certain signs that indicate The Dark Night that most directors do go by as a rule of thumb. Best always to refer matters to a spiritual director rather than ‘self-diagnose’. To enter into and travel The Dark Night of The Spirit does not necessarily need the person to know it, although it could perhaps be helpful.

Blessings…Peace and Joy…Barb

Excellent post.

In the Living prayer of my life

 

[blessedstar]

newadvent.org/cathen/04324b.htm

This will be very informative of contemplation.

In the Living Prayer of my life

 

[BarbaraTherese]

There is also an excellent article written by Sr. Constance Fitzgerald OCD, who is a discalced Carmelite nun. It approaches The Dark Night in contemporary terms, drawing on St. John of The Cross as foundational, to explain The Dark Night in terms of impasse.
geocities.com/baltimorecarmel/johncros

I dont have the time just now but will return at some point (unless someone else posts it) and post a link to the signs St. John gives in his writings that indicate The Dark Night.

Blessings…Peace and Joy…Barb

 

[blessedstar]

There is also an excellent article written by Sr. Constance Fitzgerald OCD, who is a discalced Carmelite nun. It approaches The Dark Night in contemporary terms, drawing on St. John of The Cross as foundational, to explain The Dark Night in terms of impasse.
geocities.com/baltimorecarmel/johncros

I dont have the time just now but will return at some point (unless someone else posts it) and post a link to the signs St. John gives in his writings that indicate The Dark Night.

Blessings…Peace and Joy…Barb

Barb, sorry to bother you and thanks for the post but I can’t access the site, the link doesn’t appear to be working, or it could be some fault my end.

Thanks again

In the Living Prayer of my life

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Barb, sorry to bother you and thanks for the post but I can’t access the site, the link doesn’t appear to be working, or it could be some fault my end.

Thanks again

In the Living Prayer of my life

No bother at all, BS…and thank you for letting me know re the crook link! My computer is playing up and for some reason I can’t copy and paste links anwhere, not even into Word. Cutting a long story short I have to write down the link and then type it in. You could enter “dark night - impasse” into your browser and open the site that is the Baltimore Carmel and the article.
I’m just about to post the link in the thread into what St. John wrote were the signs of TDN, after that and if you still can’t access the Baltimore Carmel article, I’ll write down and post the link. In fact I’ll do that anyway and ask Catherine to change the wrong link in my post for me. PHEWWWWW…

Sorry…I know it is all long winded and it is driving me near on crazy!!!

Blessings, Peace and Joy…Barb

 

[BarbaraTherese]

There are, drawing on St. John of The Cross, two dark nights. The first is that of sense and the second that of the soul or spirit. Usually most often is meant by the term The Dark Night is the second Night The Soul. Some have called Night of The Spirit or Night of Faith.
As with everything, taking things out of the whole context in which it is written can lead to misunderstanding and this applies also to St. John and his writings. Though he states that there are two different nights, both in nature and in degree, it does not necessarily follow (St. John states and other mystical writers too) as reality in a lifetime unfolds that first there is Night of Sense and later The Night of The Soul.
To the signs of The Dark Night of The Soul:
ccel.org/ccel/john_cross/dark_night.vii.ix.html?highlight=signs#highlight

If one is unsure about one’s interior state and unhappy about it, it is time for sure to seek out a director or a doctor. If one cannot figure out whether one needs a doctor or director, then the best move would be to seek out a director who will be able to advise whether it is direction you need, or a doctor…or even both. Of course, one need not only seek direction if unsure and/or unhappy.
Self diagnosis is rarely the best of moves. We find it entirely difficult most often to be totally objective about our own selves. Best to seek out the expert who can be objective.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Well, well…my computer has made a decision to work again. Here is the correct link to the Baltimore Carmel article by Sr. Constance on the Dark Night as Impasse.

geocities.com/baltimorecarmel/johncross/impasse.html

Blessings with Peace and Joy…Barb
PS…I can see what I did wrong with the original link, BlessedStar…I did not finish off the link and the problem with having to write down the link and then type it wherever…all seems well again now with this jolly computer. Thanks for letting me know again…I’ll send off a PM to Catherine Grant and ask her to fix the original link for me.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

I thought I had read about the following in St. John of The Cross.
ccel.org/ccel/john_cross/dark_night.vii.ix.html?highlight=signs#highlight

There is thus a great difference between aridity and lukewarmness, for lukewarmness consists in great weakness and remissness in the will and in the spirit, without solicitude as to serving God; whereas purgative aridity is ordinarily accompanied by solicitude, with care and grief as I say, because the soul is not serving God. And, although this may sometimes be increased by melancholy or some other humour (as it frequently is), it fails not for that reason to produce a purgative effect upon the desire, since the desire is deprived of all pleasure and has its care centred upon God alone. For, when mere humour is the cause, it spends itself in displeasure and ruin of the physical nature, and there are none of those desires to sense God which belong to purgative aridity. When the cause is aridity, it is true that the sensual part of the soul has fallen low, and is weak and feeble in its actions, by reason of the little pleasure which it finds in them; but the spirit, on the other hand, is ready and strong.

I just did not expect to find St. John’s words so easily and quickly.
In one of the posts I think I read that a depressed state is not present in The Dark Night. Some people though a miserable mess of depression interiorly are able to cover their state with smiles and an apparent interior dispostion of happiness and joy…as Mother Teresa did.
Of course, The Dark Night of The Soul is a mystical state and not all endure it. There can be sanctity and great sanctity as many of our saints lives reveal without a Dark Night Of Soul per se. Some even, as St. Teresa of Avila mentions will remain in The Dark Night until death. For some TDN is of many years, of some few years or even months. For some it is continual, and for others intermittant though predominantly suffering. Most often it seems to be a continual state of being over a lengthy period. If The Dark Night does progress and then pass, then the quite unusual mystical states can come along as one progresses to Unity of the soul with God.
St. Teresa of Avila states that the surest and safest way to Union with God is through love of neighbour and that the path of the unusual as in mystical states is so open to delusion by Satan and hence “dangerous” at least in potential. Investment in love of neighbour is Charity at work with loving abandon and not so open to the deceptions of Satan.

 

[TOP]

Tim - You certainly found the key point about the night of sense: the change in the soul’s way of prayer. St. John of the Cross describes the inability to meditate as before and the strong desire to seek silence and solitude alone with God as the key signs of this night.

The soul is being called to recollection and contemplation but it doesn’t recognize this grace because the call is often very subtle (i.e. the still small voice). The lack of understanding as to what is happening leads the soul to airidity, dryness and sometimes interior torment. Nothing seems right and the soul feels it’s lost it’s way. The ways of the past (meditation) no longer bear fruit . . . but the way forward (contemplation) remains clouded in darkness. The biggest mistake souls make in this night is to resist the grace that is being given in an effort to “do” something with their prayer (i.e. return to meditation) when they should simply “be.”

If this is striking a chord with you, perhaps it is a good topic to discuss with your SD. He should be able to give you some simple advice and guidelines on how to act during this night that will bring an element of peace. Regarding the duration of this night: it’s different for everybody. In general, the saints teach, the more one cooperates with the purification God is giving the shorter the length of trial. And the intensity isn’t always constant - there are ebbs and flows and alternating periods of light and darkness.

Dave, The phrase “illumination of conscience” came from a one time encounter of spirtual direction from a Priest that I briefly talked to. I described what happened and he did not hesitate to come back with that as well as saying it, as an intervention via my wifes prayers, may have saved me from “eternal seperation from God”. Of course this got my attention and reminded me of the infused knowledge that came with this warning. At the repeated request of others, which is as I see it , a way for the Lord to get a message across, I sought a full time SD to meet with every 6 weeks or so. As I told him of my emotional and spiritual experience’s, he said we should continue from this illumination, commenting on this “great thing” that happened, but was also happy I was still seeking secular help from Dr’s. He is feeling out what is me and what is not still. So he gave me simple advise and reading’s pertaining to love and daily work in the little way as it relates to my vocation as a husband and father. He wants me to concentrate on the now, saying the past is too much and to give it to the Lord. I tend to cling to the past because I’m familiar with that cross and know how to handle it now, I think. As big as it is, it is a comfort full of offerings and formed my relationship with the passion. I treasure it. This “no mans land” of contemplation I don’t understand. I thought I had already reached the pinnicle of my earthly contact with the Lord during the consolation. That is the rock my faith is built on,. not years of study or an act of will, but this intervention. I could die with only that and be content with my belief in the Lord and His love for me. But I know the Lord is pushing me away like a kid wraped around his fathers leg, so I can grow and be fruitful with what he gave me. But he send message’s reminding me he is still there. This is my trigger of this darkness. The obvious coincidence’s strike me with awe and fear, yet sometimes guide. I just freeze up and recall all that has happened and what was I taught. This is training of some kind, maybe just to deal about in the world as one of His. I know and have been shown the pollution of sin in the world. I fear this and don’t want any part of it, but can’t be fruitful as a hermit. I know who waits for me in the world. I’m comfortable in my oasis of home and church, but I’m being pushed along. To most of you this may be elementary to just do the will of God, to me it is another chance of seperation. This is something I don’t ever want to happen again. I would rather wait for His coming then to risk seperation, but He requires more from me. I also don’t want to bury my talent. These are things I have on mind as this “darkness” comes over me. Funny, last night went off without a hitch. I played with my daugther and read her a book and there was no darkness at all. Many possibilities for this, emotionally and spiritually, which seem joined at the hip for me. Tim

 

[blessedstar]

Well, well…my computer has made a decision to work again. Here is the correct link to the Baltimore Carmel article by Sr. Constance on the Dark Night as Impasse.

geocities.com/baltimorecarmel/johncross/impasse.html

Blessings with Peace and Joy…Barb
PS…I can see what I did wrong with the original link, BlessedStar…I did not finish off the link and the problem with having to write down the link and then type it wherever…all seems well again now with this jolly computer. Thanks for letting me know again…I’ll send off a PM to Catherine Grant and ask her to fix the original link for me.

Well well, St Isidore thank you and thank you Jesus.

Thanks Barb for all that work. I’m off now to read the link.

In the Living Prayer of my life

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Well well, St Isidore thank you and thank you Jesus.

Thanks Barb for all that work. I’m off now to read the link.

In the Living Prayer of my life

Thanks heaps, Blessed Star! …and thank you St. Isidore and you too again, BS:wave:, for being so very thoughtful and kind as to pray to St. Isidore for my predicament
with this jolly computer.

Thanks heaps again, BS!..The Lord’s Blessings with His Peace and His Joy…my little puppy is telling me it is past my bedtime… Nighty nights, BS…and all …Barb

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Tim - You certainly found the key point about the night of sense: the change in the soul’s way of prayer. St. John of the Cross describes the inability to meditate as before and the strong desire to seek silence and solitude alone with God as the key signs of this night.

The soul is being called to recollection and contemplation but it doesn’t recognize this grace because the call is often very subtle (i.e. the still small voice). The lack of understanding as to what is happening leads the soul to airidity, dryness and sometimes interior torment. Nothing seems right and the soul feels it’s lost it’s way. The ways of the past (meditation) no longer bear fruit . . . but the way forward (contemplation) remains clouded in darkness. The biggest mistake souls make in this night is to resist the grace that is being given in an effort to “do” something with their prayer (i.e. return to meditation) when they should simply “be.”

If this is striking a chord with you, perhaps it is a good topic to discuss with your SD. He should be able to give you some simple advice and guidelines on how to act during this night that will bring an element of peace. Regarding the duration of this night: it’s different for everybody. In general, the saints teach, the more one cooperates with the purification God is giving the shorter the length of trial. And the intensity isn’t always constant - there are ebbs and flows and alternating periods of light and darkness.

Excellent post!

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Anyone here who suffers or has suffered from Depersonalization and is the loss of sense of the world and self similar to one enduring a Dark Night of the Soul?

Hi there NF… just hoping that the questions posed in your OP are finding some resolution through all the information being presented in this thread by posters. Will be keeping you and your inentions in prayer…

God’s Blessings with His Peace and Joy…Barb

 

[DBT]

I sought a full time SD to meet with every 6 weeks or so. As I told him of my emotional and spiritual experience’s, he said we should continue from this illumination, commenting on this “great thing” that happened, but was also happy I was still seeking secular help from Dr’s. He is feeling out what is me and what is not still. So he gave me simple advise and reading’s pertaining to love and daily work in the little way as it relates to my vocation as a husband and father. He wants me to concentrate on the now

Very good advice. Your primary vocation is as husband and father so you should rightly be focused on that. Living the “little way” and concentrating on the “now” - the present moment - is something all of us should strive to do.

This “no mans land” of contemplation I don’t understand.

You don’t need to understand it nor does it take “years of study.” In fact, contemplation is really anti-intellectualism when you get right down to it . . . although you probably would never tell that from my posts If God is leading you by this path, he’ll show you the way. The lack of understanding about all this is very much part of the night of sense . . . if that is in fact what you’re going through. Maybe you can talk to your SD specifically about prayer and contemplation to complement the other issues you’re addressing.

I know and have been shown the pollution of sin in the world. I fear this and don’t want any part of it, but can’t be fruitful as a hermit. I know who waits for me in the world.

God calls people by this path from all walks of life. I’m called to live in the world – but not be of it. I’m a husband and father of 4 young kids caught up in school, sports and every possible activity. I’m also a business owner with 20 employees. So you name the distraction - I’ve got it Nevertheless, God shows me how to find silence and solitude alone with Him many, many times each day . . . whether in formal times of mental prayer or in the numerous brief moments of recollection nestled in amongst the busy moments of work and home. With time and practice, all becomes prayer so one needn’t be a hermit to reap the fruits of a deep life with God. As Blessedstar often says, this is how I define the “living prayer of my life.”

Tim, God seems to be clearly calling you to a deeper life with Him from all the things you say. Just try and be open and receptive to however God is calling you - never fearful or anxious. It’s all good . . . even the times of darkness

Dave.

 

[littleone]

Hi Littleone,
***You will gain a sense of relief and comfort through prayer in the begining. That will drive you to pray more and more. Eventually you’ll find comfort on all levels and a sense of oneness with God.
I can remember this phase many years ago. There were many miricals andgifts given to me and I cherish them greatly.

However, at some point, all of a sudden for no reason you can discern you find that your prayers no longer bring you comfort and in fact you find it hard to pray. You no longer sense God with you and all goes “dark.” You continue to pray and find no relief or comfort in it. This would be the first phase of the dark night of the soul.

I agree here and know that this time is a time I call a “leveling off” where at that time of near saturation God withdraws before one has too much but leaves you possibly in a state of wondering. This Icall the time where God is saying “I have given myself to you now i wish to show you that you have no ability to feel this love without Me so now let go of some of your humanness and feel your weaknessw without me. Yearn for Me”.***

Depending on the strength of your soul God will put you through a long period of dark night or short bursts with rewards or incentives inbetween to help the weaker souls which could be feeling his presence again or whatever he deams worthy for that particular soul.
It is in this time where God wishes us to draw closser to Him and to realise our weakness without his Grace that we need to call on Him.

As you progress on your journey toward God he will allow you to be tempted and tormented during this dark night. The truth is that you are in fact moving closer to him than you were in the begining but he requires that you have strong faith. You must have faith even without the feelings. Your torment will become your lack of feeling his presense even though he is actually walking with you and holding your hand.
This torment or suffering cleanses your soul so that you can move even closer to him. This is what Jesus called “our pruning” of the tree to bring out good fruit.

At some point when you have suffered adequately you will be granted supernatural graces because of the Dark Night. Very few souls make it this far. Padre Pio is an example of one who did.
*Each tree when pruned will yealed better and more fruit. These are the fruits of the graces God has now given us. To do more works deeper into the soul of those God chooses. *

What the OP is saying about “depersonalization” I am not sure. I will have to wiat for them to explain but as I understand it this is not part of the dark night I am reading about. But, it could be, part of thsi persons torment. I am not God, I can not say.

*This may be the time where away from the pruning that the soul goes into a place where God allows the soul to really see their humanness compared to God’s love and spirit.
This draws the soul deeper into giving of itself, not forcing it into depression or despare.*Godbless
littleone