Desire and lust

[cynic]

Think about the words themselves: “I desire (want) my wife” is rife with selfishness. One should not want one’s wife the way one wants a beer or wants money; rather, one should want to love one’s spouse.

so the only possible way to want ones spouse is through objectifying them. It’s not possible to want them as a person. What a bizzare point of view.

 

[holdencaulfield]

i have no experience in this because i am not married. And i’m 19 so that’s my excuse for questioning the difference. I constantly think about women. Would it be safe to say that if two people my age we’re married, lust would be involved.

You mean lust outside of marriage or inside?

 

[holdencaulfield]

If you want your spouse as a person, then that is good, the point of marriage, however lust would be wrong. However finding your spouse attractive is not a problem.

 

[fbl9]

Can you cite some resources on this? I may have misunderstood the Catechism, but I haven’t anything taking it to “anticipation is wrong”

Thanks. Blessings

i thought me read it in My Catholic Faith by Louis LaRavoire Morrow printed 1958 now i can’t seem to find it.

 

[nick_aksureh]

so the only possible way to want ones spouse is through objectifying them. It’s not possible to want them as a person. What a bizzare point of view.

I think the Dante was simply trying to point out the lustful nature of a statement like “I want you.” While I agree with you that it doesn’t necessarily imply lust, there was an understanding that the “want” from the speaker was the sexual form of “want” — or the worldly form, hence the use of “desire” instead of “want”

Desire more closely would imply something sexual, but regardless that was the point of bringing it up as an example.

Clearly a man should want his wife in the “person” sense, or he wouldn’t have married her. I believe this goes without saying. However, the title of this thread is “desire and lust,” and so his example fits the alternate meaning — sexual desire.

 

[nick_aksureh]

i thought me read it in My Catholic Faith by Louis LaRavoire Morrow printed 1958 now i can’t seem to find it.

In the Catechism, [1768], “Strong feelings are not decisive for the morality or the holiness of persons; they are simply the inexhaustible reservoir of images and affections in which the moral life is expressed. Passions are morally good when they contribute to a good action, evil in the opposite case. The upright will orders the movements of the senses it appropriates to the good and to beatitude; an evil will succumbs to disordered passions and exacerbates them. Emotions and feelings can be taken up into the virtues or perverted by the vices.”

It seems that the desires only become sinful once they develop into something selfish like a fantasy or masturbation. Even a fantasy may seem vague here, but I believe even a fantasy would be considered “disordered” because of its self-gratifying and objectifying nature.

When thoughts cross your mind about a girl, the right thing to do is cast them out. From experience, I know that this is extremely difficult when every other girl walking down the street is half-clothed, but it is our duty as Catholics to uphold the moral laws given to us. No one expects you to be perfect, but constant effort, admittance of sin, confession, repentance, resolve to do better, and prayer can all go a long way in this area.

You really don’t want to be older and dealing with a sexual weakness to sin. It doesn’t get easier, and it can damage your future marriage in addition to your relationship with God.

 

[cynic]

by that reasoning you could say that *any *thoughts about your spouse that are pleasant are selfish, sinful. If you fondly remember the last conversation, or interaction with them then you could make a reasonable argument that this is objectifying, since the motivation behind the memory is pleasure/gratification.

 

[nick_aksureh]

by that reasoning you could say that *any *thoughts about your spouse that are pleasant are selfish, sinful. If you fondly remember the last conversation, or interaction with them then you could make a reasonable argument that this is objectifying, since the motivation behind the memory is pleasure/gratification.

I understand your argument for memory being pleasure/gratification, but that in itself it not sinful — it is the sexual gratification you receive from fantasizing about someone apart from that person. We might start with something like, “do you agree that masturbation is wrong?” and work from there. I’m sure you can see where my logic would lead us.

I’m not how you can argue that you are objectifying someone by fondly remembering someone like that. It seems you misunderstand the meaning/what I meant by “objectifying,” which is at the core of the sin.

Objectifying means taking your spouse and thinking about only her body, the physical mass itself, and continuing to fantasizing about the pleasures you could receive from the body. Thus, thinking about memories with your wife don’t involve just her body, they involve her whole person, including her personality and heart/soul.

 

[samuraisedge18]

You mean lust outside of marriage or inside?

i mean inside the marriage. having lustful thoughts about you’re spouse.

 

[DanteAlighieri]

so the only possible way to want ones spouse is through objectifying them. It’s not possible to want them as a person. What a bizzare point of view.

If by “want them as a person” you mean “want to love them”, then you’re right – that’s not sinful. If “want them as a person” means “want to ‘do’ them 'cuz they’re hot”, that’s objectification. I don’t see how that’s at all bizarre.

The key point I made is that one should seek to love one’s spouse, and that sex is a physical manifestation of that love. The desire to ‘have’ one’s spouse simply for sexual gratification is sinful.

From the Catechism (emphasis mine):

2360 Sexuality is ordered to the conjugal love of man and woman. In marriage the physical intimacy of the spouses becomes a sign and pledge of spiritual communion. Marriage bonds between baptized persons are sanctified by the sacrament.

2361 “Sexuality, by means of which man and woman give themselves to one another through the acts which are proper and exclusive to spouses, is not something simply biological, but concerns the innermost being of the human person as such. It is realized in a truly human way **only if it is an integral part of the love **by which a man and woman commit themselves totally to one another until death.”

2363 **The spouses’ union achieves the twofold end of marriage: the good of the spouses themselves and the transmission of life. These two meanings or values of marriage cannot be separated without altering the couple’s spiritual life and compromising the goods of marriage and the future of the family. **
The conjugal love of man and woman thus stands under the twofold obligation of fidelity and fecundity.

Peace,
Dante

 

[nick_aksureh]

i mean inside the marriage. having lustful thoughts about you’re spouse.

The thing about the Faith that many overlook is that while there are many rules that go against the culture (world), there is also a lot of reason behind all of it.

Here are the “rules” that are black and white (or close to B&W):

• no contraception
• no abortion
• no sex outside of marriage
• no sex before marriage
• no sodomy or homosexual acts
• I probably missed one, but I’m writing this quickly

There’s also the spiritual vice known as lust, which is not as black and white as some wished it would be.

For instance, it’s great to love your wife and show her through sex. It is also great to want your wife, even sexually, where love is present also. Somewhere in there (and your conscience is usually pretty good at this), when it becomes selfish and non-giving, it loses the charitable love, and becomes sinful. Again, we’re still talking venial sin, which is far less severe than possible alternatives, like abstaining thinking too much is sinful, letting your body run stark mad, and in the end (perhaps after years even) committing adultery or turning to masturbation. Both of these are mortal sins.

Paul did say it well in 1 Cor 7: 1-2 “Now in regard to the matters about which you wrote: 'It is a good thing for a man not touch a woman,” but because of cases of immorality every man should have his own wife, and every woman her own husband."

There are other quotes like this in the Bible as well. It is not a license to be a slave to sex, which is clearly sinful as it would be idolizing sex over God. Paul also makes a point to say it is better not to marry when one has control over this will.

Everything takes balance, and depends greatly on maturity. At this point in your life, you may be working or in late high school or early college. These can be some of the toughest times, as you must figure out all of your values, can be tempted to extremes in the culture, and as a male your hormones are “driving hardest” in these years. Be patient and constantly repentant and use the sacrament of confession as much as possible. It is a wonderful gift.

Much peace to you.