Desperately seeking evidence for Sola Scriptura in church history

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dennisknapp

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I am starting a new tread in hopes of getting an answer for my original question regarding Sola Scriptura.

My question is this: Is there any evidence for Sola Scriptura in the history of the Church prior to the Protestant Reformation?

I am not asking about interperatation of Scripture or whether or not the Catholic position is valid or not. What I am asking for is historical, verifiable evidence for the existence for Sola Scriptura.

Can anyone help? Does it exist?
 
There is no evidence for sola scriptura in the history of the Church because sola scriptura began with the Reformation. For it to be a valid proposition it must be located in Scripture, but it is not. On the contrary, Scripture nowhere says that it is the sole rule of faith. Instead, the bible affirms its own importance and authority as well as that of Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium.
 
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dennisknapp:
I am starting a new tread in hopes of getting an answer for my original question regarding Sola Scriptura.

My question is this: Is there any evidence for Sola Scriptura in the history of the Church prior to the Protestant Reformation?

I am not asking about interperatation of Scripture or whether or not the Catholic position is valid or not. What I am asking for is historical, verifiable evidence for the existence for Sola Scriptura.

Can anyone help? Does it exist?
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I don’t mean to be rude, but I doubt that this is the best place to look. Maybe go to the forum on bible.org and ask. There will be some more qualified people there to answer you question. If you approach it in a spirit of grace and honesty, then both parties might find this a benificial conversation.

I think that what you seem to be doing by asking this question here is wanting someone to confirm what you already believe. My guess it that this won’t do you much good.

First you might want to go to this thread and get a better understanding of what sola scriptura means: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=23902 then go to www.bible.org.

Have a great day,

Michael
 
Don’t Sola Scriptura people disregard Apostolic Tradition and the teaching authority of the bishops of the Catholic Church? That sounds like the definition of a heretic to me.

In the 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia in the article on the Marcianites, an heretical sect founded in A.D. 144 at Rome by Marcion, it says about Marcion: “His theological outlook is limited to the Bible, his struggle with the Catholic Church seems a battle with texts and nothing more.” Of course, like later heretics, Marcion used only a small portion of the Sacred Scriptures to support his ideas, rejecting the Old Testament entirely and accepting only part of Luke and some letters of Paul.

Marcianites: www.newadvent.org/cathen/09645c.htm
 
“I don’t mean to be rude, but I doubt that this is the best place to look. Maybe go to the forum on bible.org and ask.”

I don’t think you are being rude, nor am I. I pose this question because what seperates us is the issue or authority, not interperation.

Sola Scriptura means that the only authority one looks to on issues of faith, doctrine and morals is Holy Scripture and that alone.

I am asking on this forum because there are not only Catholics, but very informed Protestants contributing here.

I was once a Evangelical and I looked for my Evangelicalism in the history of the Church…I came away a Catholic.

If you can find me any evidence of Sola Scriptura in the history of the Church prior to the Protestant Reformation I will reevaluate my position and change it if that is where the truth leads me.
 
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dennisknapp:
If you can find me any evidence of Sola Scriptura in the history of the Church prior to the Protestant Reformation I will reevaluate my position and change it if that is where the truth leads me.
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The article on Catholic Answers regarding Sola Scriptura (herinafter called SS) is actually quite good at highlighting the arguments pro and con, but my favorite refuter is Scott Hahn.

Here is an excerpt from his conversion story, where he asks someone (because someone has asked him) for the Biblical basis of SS:

One professor whom I greatly respect, an Oxford theologian, said to me, “Scott, you don’t expect to find the Bible proving Sola Scriptura because it isn’t something the Bible demonstrates. It is our assumption; it is our presupposition when we approach the Bible.” That struck me as odd; I said, "But professor, that seems strange because what we are saying then is that we should only believe what the Bible teaches, but the Bible doesn’t teach us to only believe what the Bible teaches. Our assumption isn’t taught by the Bible."

Timothy is usually held up as the basis of SS: “All Scripture is inspired of God and profitable for correction, for training…”, but profitable doesn’t mean sufficient, and sufficiency is what only Scripture plus Tradition yields.

By all means, keep looking, but convincing proof just isn’t there.
 
“Here is a good article from a Protestant perspective. aomin.org/Roman.html.”

I read the article and there is nothing but a polemic attack on Catholicism. I read nothing of a historical defence of Sola Scriptura. I know of James White and used to read him regularly, but he does not address the issues, only muddies the waters.
 
The most I’ve gotten from White’s website is that Early Church Fathers used Scripture to defend Orthodox beliefs…This is not in disbute, for the Church still does this today.

My question is if you came up to St. Augustine and told him of the doctrine of Sola Scriptura (the infalliable foundation of all Protestant Belief and Practice) would he know what you where talking about? Would he agree with you?

Or is Augustine a Reformed Baptist in Roman Catholic clothing, as White would have us believe by using him as an example in support of Sola Scriptura.

Anyone who knows anything of Augustine knows that of all the Early Church Fathers he is the most “Roman” of them all.

Why, Augustine is a point of some contention between Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, the former seeing the influence of Augustine as the one of the sources of the theological rift that would culminate in 1054 (or later according to some).
 
Hi,
Desperately seeking evidence for Sola Scriptura in church history
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I think it would be a good idea to desperately look for evidence of Sola Scripture in Scripture, not in church history. Scripture alone means scripture alone. SO! Scripture should say scripture alone.

TOOOO SIMPLE? I don’t think so.

Sola Scriptura is NOT to be found in scripture. It’s just not there!

John
 
I agree but some would say that because Scripture is “God breathed” and hence infallible, (it should be inerrant) it is the only reliable Authority.

I am asking if this presuppostion is found anywhere in Church history prior to the Protestant Reformation.
 
Dennis Knapp,

Your question was,“My question is this: Is there any evidence for Sola Scriptura in the history of the Church prior to the Protestant Reformation?”

No, there is no evidence during the 1500 years of the Catholic Church that there was Sola Scriptura.
Dennis, I will also tell you that you will not find Sola Scriptura in either the Bible of King James or the Vulgate.
 
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dennisknapp:
I agree but some would say that because Scripture is “God breathed” and hence infallible, (it should be inerrant) it is the only reliable Authority.

I am asking if this presuppostion is found anywhere in Church history prior to the Protestant Reformation.
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Yes; there was a man named Wycliff who had a disagreement with the Vatican concerning the interpretation of Scripture. He thought the Church was wrong and he was right, so he assumed that Scripture alone should be authoritative.

He was roundly condemned by his colleagues; whether or not he was excommunicated, I don’t remember.

Do you think that simply because Scripture is written down that it somehow acquires more validity than the spoken word?

Are you aware that the teaching of the Apostles is recorded, but not in the Bible? So it is written down; just not where you want it to be.

Scripture may be inspired, but do you actually believe that when the Evangelist sat down to write the Letters to the Corinthians or Thessalonians, he did so with the intent to write Scripture? He was addressing a specific set of problems belonging to a defined group of people; we’re reading someone’s MAIL, fer Pete’s sake…

Please; take the time and do some reading on your own - don’t expect us to just hand it to you pre-digested. SOLA SCRIPTURA IS NOT BIBLICALLY SUPPORTED; even graduates of the Oxford School of Theology admit it. Don’t believe me? Go read works by Scott Hahn or Patrick Madrid; read the relevant articles on Catholic Answers.
 
What about the original question? Can Michaelp answer this?
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dennisknapp:
My question is this: Is there any evidence for Sola Scriptura in the history of the Church prior to the Protestant Reformation?
Can anyone help? Does it exist?
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Perhaps a little help for us Catholics who can’t find the point in the articles that have been posted. Maybe some quotes will help us understand where you find the answer to this question in the articles.
 
I am sorry if there have been any misunderstanding regarding the posts, but let me state clearly–I do not believe in Sola Scriptura.

I posted this thread in an attempt to address the issue of the historical validity of The Fundemental Belief with which most Protestants base thier faith–Scripture alone.

I have searched the early fathers and could not find it–But I could have missed something.

My presupposition is this: If such a central belief is so obvious to millions of people, then it should have some sort of paper trail. Where is it?

This is what I am asking my Protestant brothers to show me.
 
To be completely fair it did exist before Luther although Luther did dogmatized it in its present from. In the 14th century John Wycliffe propsed a very similar doctrine to Luther’s and his catholic collegues at Oxford rejected it and it did it pretty much died outside of the circle of Wycliffe no cathlic cleary accepted it and it wasn’t even considered a valid theological suppostion. That is until Luther needed something to hang his hat on and found it in Wycliffe’s lost doctrine. But even given that it doesn’t have a deep historical background you have a someboyd in the 14th century coming up with it and you don’t hear about it again till the 16th century this isn’t exactly apostolic doctrine here.

Many protestant apologist will quote some of the church fathers out of context to make the fathers appear to be Luther’s source of inspiration but alas on futher inspection its an argument of straw some argue for material sufficiency of the scriptures which is still valdi catholic teaching. But these anti-catholics conveniently leave out these same fathers writings on tradition, the church, apostolic succession, the papacy, etc etc its very dishonest. I never trust these guys because they build up their arguments on false premises thus my conversion to the church the arguments are just incomplete. Much like scriptures the fathers taken out of context and not in its completenss can sound rather fundamentilist but deep study suggest a catholic understanding of the scriptures and tradition and that these holy men were 100 percent loyal catolic churchmen. I have yet to find any church father taken in context and considering his entire body of work that would honestly be considered adhering to sola scriptura. The claims that these men were just like Luther turn out to be downright lies. The words sola scriptura was never used before Luther and you won’t find it in the writings of the fathers or in the Bible. Now talk about your traditions of men. Luther takes the cake here.
 
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dennisknapp:
I agree but some would say that because Scripture is “God breathed” and hence infallible, (it should be inerrant) it is the only reliable Authority.
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If Scripture alone is the only reliable authority, then why is it those who make Scripture alone their authority are unable to agree on what Scripture teaches?

For example, some believe that Scripture teaches that Baptism provides grace, and some believe it is only symbolic act proclaiming one’s membership. Some believe Scripture teaches us that one should Baptise in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, and others believe it teaches we should baptize in the name of Jesus.
Some believe that Scripture shows that the Eucharist provides grace, and others believe it teaches it is only a memorial supper. Some believe Scripture teaches we do not need any kind of sacraments whatsoever.
Some believe that Scripture teaches Once Saved always Saved, and others believe the Scriptures teach the opposite.
Some believe that Scripture teaches that salvation is a matter of freewill, and others believe it teaches we are predestined to heaven or hell.
Jesus gave the Church authority to teach because without it, everyone becomes his own Pope and decides what is right, and the result is chaos (which is what you have with Protestantism continuingly fragmented, which NOT what Jesus intended for his church).
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dennisknapp:
I am asking if this presuppostion is found anywhere in Church history prior to the Protestant Reformation.
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Probably the best place to look is the early Church Fathers. But from reading Orthodox and Catholic writers, I’ve gotten the impression that both Catholic and Orthodoxy were united in beliefs (despite some differences of opinion) and that Sola Scriptura was unknown until Luther’s revolt.
 
Peace be with you!

Desperately seeking evidence for a perfect church in church history…

In Love,
Yaqubos†
 
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YAQUBOS:
Peace be with you!

Desperately seeking evidence for a perfect church in church history…

In Love,
Yaqubos†
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And also with you! 🙂

No one ever said the Catholic Church was or is perfect. It is not so much a hotel for saints as it is a hospital for sinners.
 
I know where to find Sola Scriptura— it’s in every Protestant’s mouth.

Peace,

Pio
 
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